Making Sense of the Dark History.

I created this thread, so as not to derail the build fighters thread even further with my response to a post by Bossguy.

First some background.
Bossguy said that Build Fighters needed to show kits from something other than UC and CE. I replied that they had with G, Wing, X, and Turn A. He acknowledged the oversight. I made a joke about how he could have used the Dark History as an excuse for the oversight, and he responded with the following:

So now we’re all caught up, and I can give my response to Bossguy. Feel free to discuss.

Turn A is fairly obviously connected to UC (unearthed Zakus, Kapools, creator of both saying so, etc.), and if we want to make the dark history work, I think it’s rather easy. From what i understand, X has the closest visual and thematic ties to UC, with Newtypes running around, O’Neill cylinder type colonies, massive genocide, etc., so we’ll start with that. X (which starts with the end of the seventh space war wiping out most of human life) is sometime post Victory (which is the 6th major space war in UC). Turn A is then a couple of thousand years after that. G is possibly somewhere in between X and Turn A (shining finger and devil cells/nano machines appear to tie into the technology of Turn A).

Wing is the most problematic, given EW’s epilogue, so I’ll just call it a case of outright fiction (or possibly a fictionalized account of the MSG-CCA era of the UC) being mistaken for actual history a couple of thousand years after the fact. It’s not like it hasn’t happened before in real life (to give a recent example, Rurouni Kenshin is close enough that it is sometimes mistaken for being historically accurate, and that’s only a little over a century after the start of the Meiji era. Now imagine what it could be like in another hundred years, then a thousand, then ten thousand, especially if the actual history books get lost to the indifference of time or are methodically destroyed, which has happened, a lot).

To be fair, G or even X could also be taken as fiction assumed to be history, but there’s no question Turn A is the future of UC. Tomino created both, and his last Gundam series to date (Turn A) is explicit about it.

So in summary, I see Turn A as absolutely part of the UC timeline, X as very likely, G as possible, and Wing as a work of fiction within it, and I see SEED, 00, AGE, and Build Fighters as separate timelines.

smart @## joke comment

After hundreds of character kills, Tomino-san decided he would surpass Light Yagami, and simple wrote Gundam in his Deathnote. Realizing he would also have to kill all alternative universes by the name Gundam as well, Tomino-san added a detail line to the Deathnote about eliminating every occurrence of Gundam from fiction as well. Awakening in the morning, the complete script of Turn A sat on his desk, pre-approved. Curious about how the Deathnote would make this possible, Tomino thumbs through the script, and finds his answer, something about a Dark History, and a unexplained flash sequence of every Gundam AU. Thinking to himself this was brilliant, he began production.

Little did he realize at the time, Gundam was now self sustaining, and immortal, as it had found it’s way into the hearts of fans, and artists around the world. And it the end, it was all for not.

Anyways…

If you figure in the Turn A Manga adaption there is an AC MS in it, the Gundam Acelupius (sp) which Corin Used instead of the Kapool, granted that isn’t really Cannon per se, but I personally take it as the possiblity of AC existing at somepoint in the CC is possible. Though the Fictionalized account of CCA being what Wing/EW is, is I’ll admit, an intresting, if not slightly amuseing (in a good way) theory.

SEED was actually Retconed offcially into the Dark History, though 00 and up dosen’t, Build Fighters and 00 especially would be hard to work in. To it. Granted there isn’t much of SEED to be seen so why they mentioned it being thrown in there, I have no clue.

As for the flow of things, personally I think there’s less of a flow than there is, it’s a big cluster f*** caused by some temporal anomoly, or it just never in any actuality happened, Most likely IMO the first theory. There are more than a few events that could have caused some sort of distortion, for example the Psycoframe overload of the Nu Gundam, and Sazabi in CCA. Newtype’s spatial awareness, have shown to be beyond natural, so such a big flux of power would be bound to cause some sort of distortion in time it’s self. (I’ve used said theory in my current RP I’m running, as it bares a similar thing to turn A where MS are being diged up but it’s more clear on everything that’s involved)

As for UC flowing into the AW, it does make a bit of sense, Newtypes, and similar tech surface, but the thing is, it’d have to be a skew off of the UC IMO, as late UC tech (Let’s say Crossbone, if not F91 and up) is from what I’ve seen more advanced, what the AW has is more of in the area of late Gryps Conflict to Early Second Neo Zeonic war stuff, with a few things that could contend with newer stuff of course, but not much.

Another theory I have is that every time line is self contained, and that the Turn A and X them selves over time skewed them into one, or maybe just the Turn X, it’s origional form, and purpose are unknowns so it could be some Alien Craft meant to end war which it does with Moonlight butterfly, basically it exists in multiple realities, or is sent to them, and basically ends conflict by destroying Tech. Eventually it led to a skewed time line after doing it some much mergeing them into what is the CC, which led to the creation of the Turn A, and an end to the Cycle.

The other Theory that shoots off of the above is that each timeline in the CC does flow into one another but the Turn X ends each one in sequence, think like the Reapers in Mass Effect, though it or it’s controllers rather got sloopy once and the Turn A was built, they fought, and well the Cycle ended anyways, so it was a success to some degree. Though because of this Suits from a few timelines were now found and the war began allot sooner, also there was a conclave of Humans on the moon not really targeted so that helped spark the war again as well.

Thing is, the above dosen’t factor in the common history found in humanity, such as the happenings of the Roman empire and such, but it can be chalked up to, history repeats to the extreme, but that’s just one reason I personally think the temporal distorations made by each universe pulled a few of them together, and the Turn X was some alien thing sent to investigate earth this odd hot spot of distortions in space times, and the humans of the early CC just couldn’t dedect/know that other time lines were mergeing into theirs.

Hmmm, I think the theoretical time line of UC --> X and G --> CC has the most ground if only because the technological progression fits best. It’s not a perfect fit by any means, though, due to all of the strange inconsistencies.

UC --> X makes sense since the tech, ideologies, and tech progress match to a certain degree. It gets kinda iffy after that because where does G Gundam really come in other than its nanotechnology? That’s assuming the nanotech came from G Gundam at all.

I’m a firm believer of Wing and the other alternate universes to be a work of fiction within the CC universe as well. If anything, maybe even propaganda to stir up support for a continuation of conflicts. Yes, Corin Nander had a nightmare about the Wing Gundam, but that could have easily been psychological brain-washing considering how messed up in the head he was. Everything about the alternate timelines is just too different to fit in with a UC-to-CC progression, though one can speculate that they did happen in the same universe but on different worlds (since it was kinda implied somewhere that humanity did branch out to other worlds).

As for the Turn X, which is the source of the entire conflict in CC, I think it’s just a pure plot device meant to drive the universe it lives in simply because there is no explanation that is remotely solid that explains why it was made and who made it.

Well my comment before was for joking purposes. Ever since the release of Turn A, there has always been a Gundam fan somewhere, trying to figure out how to link everything to the “Dark History”. Honestly, only 2 things could ever make the entire thing make sense, and neither are the supposed reason for it.

One, Alternate Universes, in the literal sense. This has never been pointed to in Turn A as far as I am aware. Supposedly every part of Gundam is related in some form of timeline, which makes no sense, as shown here. The technical inconsistencies between late UC, and Gundam X are quite glaring when you look at it directly. But this isn’t surprising, since even though they wanted to do a After War/Apocalypse Gundam series, they didn’t want it to effect future UC projects, hence X is a AU. So that limits that.

Second, They break the fourth wall and realize the entire Dark History was created from the outside. Meaning pointing the blame at our world for creating Gundam itself. I wouldn’t put it past Tomino for this to have been his original intention in creating the “Dark History” mythos that is integral to explaining Turn A’s world. 1900’s society with Ancient, and powerful war machines, and a way of life that is all but forgotten. And while it some what seems like that was what Gynim(sp?) seemed to be going on about in some part during the final fight between Turn X, and Turn A, I don’t think it got enough play to be the final outcome of it all.

But yeah, after seeing this topic being discussed so many times over the years, I just got in the habit of making jokes about it. It’s kinda like trying to get actual tech specs for mobile suits that don’t change every time a new book is printed, or retcon’ed. Just remember when thinking about Gundam, there is no such things as Official, or Canon, there’s only animated, and print, and the two are completely separate things. Heck in the Novelized version of the original MSG, Char kills Amuro, and it’s Sayla who confronts him, and confesses her love for the departed.

Just my thoughts to this, I think that Gundam 00 came first in timeline, reason why its (to my knowledge) only one with “real” date, followed by U.C., cause in first epsiode of Unicorn, you can hear Ricardo Marcenas say that its time to leave Anno Domini behind (Timeline from 00), as for mobile suits and other tech, its possible they scraped it, like they did in AGE, and as for the Innovators, they did leave for a deep space exploration at the end of the movie on the Sumeragi (and who in turn could be responsible for building the Turn X, as its said that Turn X was build by humans outside of the solar system)

As for Wing and X, I really don’t see why they couldn’t be stories like Zeta-G said, Wing being told from Zeon side (seeing how they lost the one year war, and those after due to gundam units) so someone in Zeon, or Neo Zeon (whats the difference between Zeon and Neo Zeon?) decided to write a story or TV show where Zeon scientist under a different name made gundams.

For X, I would say its the same as wing, but its written by either federation writer as a What if/Alt history story,…since that is what I heard its about, different units/plot/characters, but follows the idea of what if zeon drooped colonies on more massive scale. We do have stories like that in real life.

As for G-Gundam,…I guess it could have been made as a game/sport and somebody simply went too far with it?

Honestly, I don’t See how SEED would fit in.

Well those are my thoughts about that

Yeah but AD in 00 was upinto the 2300’s in UC cannon the AD 2045-ish, some even say 2149 before the switch to the Universal Century. Also, what happened to all of the tech, the switch is beleived to be instant, and was marked with the colonies, which AD allready had, also it was 75 some odd years before the UC had Mobile Suits, of which the 00 AD had allready, so that doesn’t add up either, as the change to UC from it’s AD was instantanious. Why would they just scrap it all as well? Especially seeing as the UC happened because humanity needed more room, why would they just go ‘F*** these space colonies, lets destroy them!’

Mind you the whole Turn X thing you mentioned is an intresting theory, but even then the tech is nothing like and Inovator would use, as an Inovator born of GN Particles would likely elect to keep those powering their suits, also Turn A came out years before AD was ever included, and it was never Retconned in by Bandai so it’s a Non-factor into the Dark History, the only ones confirmed to lead into it are the UC, AC, AW, FC, and the CE which was Retconned in later.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/∀_Gundam

Near the bottom first entry in the Trivia Section, as well as it’s add on about how SEED/Destiny was merged into the Dark History.

That I didn’t know, about timeline I mean and I meant military tech not colonies, thats what happen in AGE, if you didn’t watch it I don’t want to spoil it. But I thought that someone would have pointed out that not all inovators would go on that ship and some did stay behind.

I don’t really follow what Bandai does, I just make my own connections when watching the anime,…kind of more fun that way for me =P

the way I saw the dark history, mainly from what it was told in Turn A anime, was the time of war(s) which Turn A ended with its moonlight butterfly,…though I do have to ask how come moon race tech wasn’t destroyed like Earths was, eh I guess I just missed the explanation.

Yeah I’ve seen AGE, yeah they could have done that with the Millitary stuff, but the colonies, it wouldn’t add up.

That said it could have gone any multitude of ways, personally I’d love if they finally released a diffinitve version of the Dark History, what it included, how it flowed and happened whether it all happened consecutively and was ended by something like the Turn X interveneing, or all just mashed together from diffrent universes or it flowed peacefully untill some strange MS appeared 1000s of years after the UC/AW/AC/FC/CE, and crap just hit the fan.

Would also be nice to see Turn A redone like the Origon and have it show off more suits from other time lines as well, to get a better sense of connection between them.

I think this picture (which is a translated page from the Gundam Official Encylopedia) should aid in the confusion. In it, it says that all Gundam timelines are part of the Dark History. It’s kind of like a reverse of Ocarina Of Time (three parallel timelines diverging from a single point) in which all the timelines are merged at a single point, Thus, all timelines and all the events that took place in each timeline are true. Hence why there series is called Turn A Gundam (Turn A is a symbol for universal quantification of predicate logic).

So it’s a bit like some of my theories use, basically they all merged into one, for whatever reason. Makes more sense than trying to peice them into one contiuity I’ve allways beleived.

That said untill something beyond SEED is added, I’m personally not considering AGE/BF/00 as part of it. Especially Build Fighters as there is no way for it to really exist in the CC IMO.

Actually I think Seed was retconned into the Dark History. Though, don’t quote me on that as I am not too sure myself.

The link didn’t give jack as to how SEED retconned itself into Turn A’s Dark History, just that it had.

As far as the rest goes, X’s degradation in technology compared to late UC, isn’t an issue. We don’t know how long the 7th Space War took after the first one, for one (but let’s assume that it was within 50 years, probably somewhere around 20-30). We do know that the Federation is lazy, cheap, and complacent. Bye bye Wings of Light and Beam Shields. The other possibility is that the 7th Space war’s colony drop was devastating enough to cause a regression in technology and/or knowledge. Again, you can look to history for examples of this. The fall of the western Roman Empire resulted in the dark ages for western Europe, where technological progress and education would not fully recover until about a thousand years later (the Renaissance). So losing a couple of super advanced technologies to a war that wiped out 95% of humanity is nothing in comparison.

G, ridiculous as it is, fits in well enough as a way to prevent future Seventh Space War level conflicts, plus it has a crapton of mobile suits at the end, many from UC and even the Wing makes it in. It also provides an origin for the shining finger and nanomachines seen in Turn A.

Turn A (the suit) fits in here.

As for Wing, I prefer to go the historical fiction route when fitting it in due to EW, but if you want to make it fit, just position it after Turn A dusts the previous timeline, and have it then dusted by the Turn A.

Depending on how SEED retconned itself in, it could fit in like Wing (either as a historic fiction or as a brief timeline quickly zapped by the Turn A).

Turn A (the series) goes here.

Nothing else has been retconned in (at least so far). 00 and Build fighters make themselves impossible to fit in in any sane way. I suppose AGE could fit in sometime after X (colony design, X-rounders are like Newtypes, Flit’s Legendary Gundam painting looks a lot like First), but it’s probably a stretch.

I seriously don’t see why some people can’t make sense out of the dark history, when it’s trivial to do so. The basic outline of what I just typed I remember reading over a decade ago when Wing was on the air in the US. I just threw in my knowledge of history to make it easier to grasp. Most people seem to get hung up on the series being created as separate shows/timelines, but really out of the ones actually seen in the Turn A anime (UC, FC, AC, and AW), only Wing creates any meaningful issues to a continuous narrative, and those can be quickly resolved. But I suppose it’s the western fans’ obsession with Wing that gets in the way of them seeing that.

That’s all I’ve got to say.

Addendum: the image doesn’t even claim that. It shows all timelines converging into Turn A (minus SEED). Having actually seen the official Zelda timeline, it’s nothing like that. That one actually laid out the parallel universes and how they related to each other. This one says they all lead into Turn A. The dashed part of the lines indicate that the how part is unknown. Wow. What a revelation! /S

I think some people want an official source that explains it all, rather than relying on speculation no matter how inclusive and observant/intelligent it may be.

Kinda curious where all of the Turn A suits went, though. The series showed a quick scene of an army of them and yet only one remained at the end when it gets discovered by Loran. If they were all wiped out by the MB, what made Loran’s suit special?

We’d all like it to be clearer. But there’s a world of difference between looking at what we have been given, and trying to piece it together, and the fingers in the ears, singing “la la la”, and ignoring the evidence.

Sunrise has always placed primacy on the animated works, although some non-animated works such as Blue Destiny and Crossbone are seen as more canonical than the majority of non-animated works.

UC leads directly to Turn A. This is established as fact.

X shares a lot with UC. Even Jamil’s old Federation uniform is highly similar. It is not unreasonable to place X sometime after UC.

The world of G shares a lot of technology with the Turn A and Turn X. It is not unreasonable to assume it takes pace shortly before the creation of those suits. The fact that the world has taken a relatively peaceful and radically different approach to settling regional disputes (the Gundam fight) also makes sense, if the precursor to the Gundam Fight was a series of devastating wars followed by the big one, which literally nearly wiped out humanity. It even has a bunch of UC suits in the final battle (other mecha can be taken as random mobile fighters which may or may not be inspired by fictitious works).

Wing’s timeline is the most troublesome, but it can be resolved either vaguely (Turn A wiped it out at some point) or by applying what we know about real history (sometimes entertainment and/or a fictionalized account is mistaken for actual history by people who don’t know any better).

Even if we don’t (or can never) know exactly how everything fits together, we can make an educated guess based on what we have for evidence. Gundam has never had an occurrence of characters from another dimension crossing over into another. It has had numerous bloody wars and attempts to put a stop to them. It is based in reality (even G is just super advanced technology) and on actual science, and it acknowledges actual history and attempts to be a continuation of it. The best approach to understanding the dark history is to look at the actual animated work that comprises it, and use logic, science, and history to try and piece it together, not wild sci-fi speculation that has no basis in Gundam.

Eh I’ve said my piece, people can put it together which ever way they want.

Personally I don’t stress on it to much most of the day, I personally find the CC more enjoyable as a stand alone, the concept of everything (or rather some of it) leading into the CC is well, unneeded in the first place, yeah you can piece it together, and yeah how Zeta-G does it makes some sense, for sure. (Personally I don’t buy into the AC being a fiction, personally I piece it in there, as you said, it ain’t that hard) Turn A was a good show none the less and a fun experience to be sure though.

Though I think I’d place AC before FC, for the simple fact if you consider the UC mecha, you should also consider the Proto wing in G as well, which I personally give no more creedence to that just fan servicey cameos, but since that door was opened, I’ll just leave it there. As for SEED I don’t see why it was retconned in, personally it has more creedence as a fiction than AC, due to the similarities to UC it bears. (Updated Zeonic mechs, suposed to be homage to the OYW/Gryps conflict)

That said the conversation has been fun, but I’m gonna pull out, it’s a dead horse that I’ve beaten to much on other forums, and I’m sure I did it once or twice here as well when I first showed up.

@Zeta-G, yeah, that makes sense. Personally, I prefer if Wing is a work of fiction when considered as part of the CC universe. I just don’t see it as fitting in as easily as G Gundam and X, which are more consistent with the UC and CC timeline and for me, it’s either a somewhat sensible fit or no fit at all. Same goes for the other series as well like SEED, AGE, and 00.

It might make sense to consider those as events happening on different worlds. Yeah, this is pure speculation, but I’m basing it on how those series re-use concepts and events that have already been done in UC (with the exception of maybe Wing and 00). Almost like it’s humanity repeating its past history, but with minor differences and in some ways, better tech.

@ZRC, I’m of the mindset that the Dark History is whatever an individual will make of it so I agree with you. Some areas make really great sense and others are not and there’s nothing wrong with trying to fill in the blanks with your own ideas.

I even did not expect Build Fighters to be included in the discussion. It’s about Gunpla and not real mobile suits. Gundam is a fictional media in the world of Build Fighters.

My personal take on Dark History is that Correct Century is another alternate universe where all of the other universes are merged into one. The actual canon alternate universes did not lead into Correct Century.

The Dark History shown in episode 43 is kinda vague. It just shows mobile suits from UC, Wing and X. The only mentioned timeline is Universal Century. It makes me think that everything took place from an alternate Universal Century timeline where other Gundams and mobile suits from Wing and X are in this same alternate Universal Century.

I just remember this thread from last year, and my detailed opinion about different Gundam timelines are here as well.

http://www.gundamforums.com/showthread.php/8391-Is-Gundam-on-One-same-galaxy

The Wing in G can be explained away easily enough. Some fan liked the Wing tv show and customized a mobile suit/fighter to look like a Green wing. People have made cars that look like the batmobile in the real world already, and we already have a massive RX-78-2 statue with extremely limited mobility (to say nothing of Japan’s scale replicas of other robots). CCA indicated that people customizing the look of old war mobile suits is a hobby that exists in UC (Hobby Hizack), so stretch that out at least 200 years (if not more) and Wing can still be fiction within a unified timeline.

If wing exists as actual history in the unified timeline (and still appears in G), it mandates at least 2 resets, one of which before G Gundam (Wing was established as taking place 195 years after the building of colonies started, so previous colonies [i.e. UC, X, and anything else before Wing] would need to be gone), and one after, since G has a custom colored Wing plus UC suits). That means colony development would have to happen at least twice from the stone age within 10,000 years from UC (to use Turn A movies’ account; the series is half that). Given our own actual history, we would need about 7,000 years to redevelop (assuming a Dark Ages type event didn’t stall progress like it did in the real world). Much cleaner to have time line be UC->AW->FC->CC with AW and CE stuck in as fictitious accounts (both can be boiled down as retellings of UC anyway), then we have a little under 10,000 (or 5,000) years to go from FC being dusted to Turn A taking place, which is much more reasonable. It’s speculation to be sure, but it’s where logic leads us to, given the shows and what we know about actual human development.

Reads EVERY. SINGLE. POST.

Wait what? but eh…the X and the what? and…CONFUSION! CONFUSION!

//youtu.be/-hQr3qBOHWc

Whew! sorry about that…I got SUPER confused…gimme a sec

Goes over it AGAIN…

Ok I get it…carry on…Wait, but what about…???..!!!

//youtu.be/-hQr3qBOHWc

Just kiddin about that last one. But honestly imo the CC is yes a sort of future version of the UC, but honestly I see it as an AU all its own that ties the other AUs all together in its own AU lol