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  1. #1
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    Question How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeon

    So, lets pretend there was such a thing as a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer during the One Year War. This variation of the Zaku II in question has the legs of the MS-06R-1A Zaku II High Mobility Type, and the backpack of the MS-06F Zaku Minelayer. In fact, I have photoshopped images that represent the Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer...

    Zaku_High_Mobility_Minelayer-front.jpg Zaku_High_Mobility_Minelayer_back.jpg

    With this Zaku II variation in mind, how useful would this Mobile Suit be for the Principality of Zeon during the One Year War. Feel free to explain how and why?

  2. #2
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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    First off, I think this thread should go in the Favorite Zaku Thread (also know as the Zaku General (which if you know your internet culture is a reference to the /vg/ threads of 4chan)). Secondly, to what purpose would this suit serve? A mobile suit must have some sort of practical purpose behind it's creation. Why would this suit need to be built? Hi-Mobility implies it specializes in rapid-assault offensive stirkes. However, Minelaying stipulates that it's job is to set mines for ships. Now ordinarily, these two qualities are contradictory, but both the British and the French forces during the Second World War experimented with a few high speed minelaying ships capable of 40 knots that had some relative amounts of success.
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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    It'd be high speed diversion tactics. Zip around the battlefield and lay mines at predetermined coordinates. Watch as things start exploding then work with the explosions to take the Feddies down.

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    Potential upgrade for the Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer

    What if you took the Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer, and gave it the head, chest thrusters, shoulder, and pelvic skirt armor of the MS-06E Zaku Recon Type?

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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    A better question would be why would they take a MS designed for ace pilots and use it as a support unit? If your going to ask "what if?" Then why not use the gelgoog or Rick Dom? Both are superior MS's.

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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Rxslinger View Post
    A better question would be why would they take a MS designed for ace pilots and use it as a support unit? If your going to ask "what if?" Then why not use the gelgoog or Rick Dom? Both are superior MS's.
    But then again, there was the Zaku Tank...
    ms-06v.jpg
    Might as well slap a Minelayer backpack on it.

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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    Everything Zeta said plus the Zaku tank was a field modification from scrap. Also there is no point putting the money into a minelayer to make it hi-mo. Its job is to lay mines to help secure an area then leave. It does not fly in front of ships trying to get it to hit mines or anything like that. So leave those legs on a Zaku built specifically for high speed strikes at critical elements.

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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaku View Post
    Everything Zeta said plus the Zaku tank was a field modification from scrap. Also there is no point putting the money into a minelayer to make it hi-mo. Its job is to lay mines to help secure an area then leave. It does not fly in front of ships trying to get it to hit mines or anything like that. So leave those legs on a Zaku built specifically for high speed strikes at critical elements.
    Exactly. The zaku tank was a salvage unit. I find it hard to believe they would repair a zaku HM with a minelayer backpack when I'm sure there would be a better option available. What would be the point of a high mobility zaku minelayer? What makes the Zaku HM is the leg thrusters and backpack. By removing the backpack you cut down on it mobility and speed. A standard zaku HM with a bazooka would be more effective in the battlefield than a hm minelayer. Mainly because it could do hit and run tactic while the hm minelayer could run in front of a shop and drop mines, but it would need to decelerate to do so making it a easy target and it would allow the enemy to track it's location and avoid the mines all together.

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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    While a mine layer that has a higher speed capacity of the Zaku R series would no doubt be far superior to a mine layer based on the Zaku C or F series that I think the original mine layer was based on...

    There is a fundamental issue of the fact that trying to use mines in space is well... pretty much a doomed prospect.

    See, on the ground you can put up a layer of mines because people are going to be stomping across the ground and you kind of just need to generally know which path they are going to take.

    And when there are mines for ships, they float on the top of the ocean and are for vessels that are going to be floating across... pretty much the same as someone going across the ground.

    But in a 3-dimensional environment? Yeah, the chances of anyone coming across and touching your mines is far more slim. It might work if you were setting up mines in the shallow waters near your port to destroy enemy submarines... but trying to do it in the deep ocean? You would either need to pack your mines so densely that there would be no way they would be worth the expense... and they would set one another off the moment a single vessel passed through it, so your entire field would ultimately just destroy a single target.

    This is even more true in space-- because space? Space is BIG. The further you get from orbit, the field grows at a square ratio compared to being on the ground. So there is all that much greater of a chance of the enemy simply passing right through your field. You would need to know pretty precisely where the enemy was going to move through with alarming precision. And if you know with that sort of precision where the enemy is going to be, you may as well just fire in their direction along the path they are taking now. After all-- in space there is no air resistance, so any projectile you fire off will keep its initial velocity and power for infinite distance until it strikes a target.

    Also, space is generally so empty that there is practically no way the mines would go unnoticed. Even if you could somehow ensure they wouldn't show up on radar, someone could still just look out a window or on a view screen and just see them floating in space out there. Since these are weapons that just don't move, that would allow people to just neatly go around them.

    And, of course, there is the general issue that is always true of mines-- they are as much a hazard for your own side as they are for the enemy. If you just leave them floating out there and everyone on your side doesn't happen to know exactly where each and every last deployment was, then there is every chance that your own side is going to run into them... perhaps an even higher chance than them ever negatively impacting the enemy, particularly if you were using them defensively and they were within your own space.

    For all these reasons, any sort of mine-laying mobile suit just seems like an out-and-out bad idea in general as a space combat suit.
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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    generally mines are used to slow and enemy not stop them. and in space you would use a mine field only around critical areas to keep enemy ships at a distance and a keep them occupied and as a low cost low tech early warning system. the mine layers would lay mines around Solomon or a colony with only one or two entry points for friendly ships. you wouldn't be relying on the mines to destroy the enemy just slow them down keep them at a distance and let you know they are there when you just happen to not be scanning that area. them slowing the enemy down and making them sit there and either destroy mines or slowly navigate through your mine field is a huge advantage.

    Zaku on kova luu.
    YOU WANT TO BE MORE THAN JUST A GRUNT? LEARN TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE!
    In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it. -Erwin Rommel
    They're on our right, they're on our left. They're in front of us, they're behind us; they cant get away from us this time -chesty puller
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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    Hmm.. I think you are still not thinking 3-dimensionally when it comes to space combat. When on the ground, the enemy has to come at you directly across a flat plane. But in space direct lines between A and B are not going to be used particularly commonly. Especially since everything is orbiting which means nothing is going to stay in the same place for very long.

    Yes, I suppose if you had a giant asteroid/base in space and somehow it was desirable for the enemy to enter into it rather than just shooting off all the weapons on the surface as well as your solar collectors and then just having patrols wipe out any supply ships that might come as they wait for your inevitable surrender or death...

    Then I suppose you could stick some mines around the entrances to your fortress.

    But this causes three major problems-- the first is that you can no longer use that entrance/exit without getting blown up either. That really doesn't do you any good.

    The second is that this is such a very rare and specific situation that it is highly specific that it isn't going to arise often enough for it to be economical for you to build a specific line of machines for this one task in particular.

    The third is that your asteroid is going to have gravity-- though not much. One can overcome that with occasional propulsion, your mines are all just going to fall to the ground in a matter of minutes which means they will all just fall to the ground and enemy forces aren't likely to be dragging on the ground. The only way to avoid that would be if the mines used propulsion themselves-- in which case they would be all that much more visible.


    And even overlooking all of that, since they are just hanging out there in the wide open, it won't be particularly difficult for an enemy to clear them out with a few machine gun rounds-- so it is likely that they won't even be successful in "slowing down" the enemy to any noticeable degree.


    All in all, what I am trying to say is this....

    If there was a reason to use mines in space, absolutely attaching the mine laying capabilities to a Zaku R series would make the most sense because you would want it done as quickly as possible (and likely want the most maneuverability so that the thing could avoid its own mines). But being in space basically robs the mines of every aspect that makes them work for ground combat. As a result, they would be even more of an inefficient and imprecise weapon than they are in ground combat making them a pretty useless weapon to use in combat.


    Now, I am not trying to discourage you from kitting together your idea and making the model. I am just saying that narratively, if we were looking at the combat realistically, I just don't think it would be a particularly effective weapon.

    There might be a case where one could be successful, like perhaps baiting an enemy and causing them to give chase and dropping the mines behind it... and miraculously the one giving chase somehow doesn't notice the mines and runs into them. But even in such a case, I have to think it would be more effective to fire something towards the enemy as it would reach them faster and give them less time to react.
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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    Quote Originally Posted by jaster-jesek View Post
    Hmm.. I think you are still not thinking 3-dimensionally when it comes to space combat. When on the ground, the enemy has to come at you directly across a flat plane. But in space direct lines between A and B are not going to be used particularly commonly. Especially since everything is orbiting which means nothing is going to stay in the same place for very long.

    Yes, I suppose if you had a giant asteroid/base in space and somehow it was desirable for the enemy to enter into it rather than just shooting off all the weapons on the surface as well as your solar collectors and then just having patrols wipe out any supply ships that might come as they wait for your inevitable surrender or death...

    Then I suppose you could stick some mines around the entrances to your fortress.

    But this causes three major problems-- the first is that you can no longer use that entrance/exit without getting blown up either. That really doesn't do you any good.
    Your hypothetical is assuming the enemy has complete control over the area and the occupants of the asteroid base are just sitting around with their thumbs where the sun dont shine. the mine-field is not an absolute it is just one measure to keep the enemy at a distance and keep them below cruising speed.

    The second is that this is such a very rare and specific situation that it is highly specific that it isn't going to arise often enough for it to be economical for you to build a specific line of machines for this one task in particular.
    there is no reason that minelayer equipment could not come off the Zaku fairly easily. the equipment would be used only for the time it is needed then taken off the Zaku. in the case of a large base then it would be a full time job for the MS to lay mines in a perimeter around any long term area of operation and facility. Or those units would be attached to a support squadron whose job would be to prep and area for defense and other tasks. then when they are done they'd get orders to another area and so on.

    The third is that your asteroid is going to have gravity-- though not much. One can overcome that with occasional propulsion, your mines are all just going to fall to the ground in a matter of minutes which means they will all just fall to the ground and enemy forces aren't likely to be dragging on the ground. The only way to avoid that would be if the mines used propulsion themselves-- in which case they would be all that much more visible.
    yes however you are imagining them far closer to the base than they would be and those gravitational forces are really quite weak at the distances they would be laid and with the gravitational force of the base. for example "The acceleration due to gravity on the surface of the Moon is about 1.625 m/s2, about 16.6% that on Earth's surface or 0.16 ɡ. Over the entire surface, the variation in gravitational acceleration is about 0.0253 m/s2 (1.6% of the acceleration due to gravity)." those mines would be two or three miles out in a sphere around the base with zigzagging routes for supply and holes blown in them by both sides for combat. it is a double edged sword in that regard but all mines are.


    [quote]And even overlooking all of that, since they are just hanging out there in the wide open, it won't be particularly difficult for an enemy to clear them out with a few machine gun rounds-- so it is likely that they won't even be successful in "slowing down" the enemy to any noticeable degree.[quote]
    not only will they have to slow down to shoot them without missing any and hitting them anyways but the explosions are a early warning system as i stated before. you arent going to fly at combat speeds and pray your gunners dont miss a single mine. because they will and the ship will be severely damaged and a lot of your people will die. those mines will be placed so they do not chain react and so they will have to navigated around by any ships large enough to carry MS.


    All in all, what I am trying to say is this....

    If there was a reason to use mines in space, absolutely attaching the mine laying capabilities to a Zaku R series would make the most sense because you would want it done as quickly as possible (and likely want the most maneuverability so that the thing could avoid its own mines). But being in space basically robs the mines of every aspect that makes them work for ground combat. As a result, they would be even more of an inefficient and imprecise weapon than they are in ground combat making them a pretty useless weapon to use in combat.
    my earlier point was mostly "thats a lot of money to dump into a POG suit." if you could make a High-mo minelayer without gutting a R-1 or R-2 or ending up broke afterward then why not go for it! the MS needs to come to a complete stop to lay the mines or they are going to fly off into space. so a faster Zaku would be able to get from point A to point B faster, stop, lay the mine, and go to the next. but that is a lot of money to spend on a non-comabt MS. there should be escort MS defending the minelayers and that area should be secure before mines were laid.

    Now, I am not trying to discourage you from kitting together your idea and making the model. I am just saying that narratively, if we were looking at the combat realistically, I just don't think it would be a particularly effective weapon.
    practicality is my thing with my models i like to imagine if this were real would it make sense. and i believe it does. it would take a lot more than that to discourage me. lol you have no idea.

    There might be a case where one could be successful, like perhaps baiting an enemy and causing them to give chase and dropping the mines behind it... and miraculously the one giving chase somehow doesn't notice the mines and runs into them. But even in such a case, I have to think it would be more effective to fire something towards the enemy as it would reach them faster and give them less time to react.
    no that would be a terrible plan of action. maybe in a desperate move if a minelayer got caught and his escort got shot down. but that area should have been secured before hand by a main force. and the minelayer should have a 120mm.

    Zaku on kova luu.
    YOU WANT TO BE MORE THAN JUST A GRUNT? LEARN TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE!
    In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it. -Erwin Rommel
    They're on our right, they're on our left. They're in front of us, they're behind us; they cant get away from us this time -chesty puller
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  13. #13
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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    Converting the Hi-Mo Zaku into a mine layer really makes no sense. Hi-Mo Zaku is a specialist unit designed to improve the regular Zaku II C, and converting it into a minelayer configuration would imply removing one of it's main strength, it's hihg sped back pack. This would limit it's usable speed significantly, as well as making it rather unbalanced and probably harder to use effectively than either the regular Zaku or the Hi-Mo due to the lower limbs having more trust than the upper body. Also, speed in mine laying is a nice bonus but not a necessity due to the fact that it's performed in advance of action and mostly used as a area denial method. (Also I'm slightly confused why the Principality didn't just use something like the Papua or Musai for the minelaying role, one would assume they would have better efficiency in covering large areas due to significantly higher payload.....wait, It's because it's the Principality, place where someone can have this thing* presented to them and think "Hmmm, how quickly can we mass produce it?" )

    *




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    Re: How useful would a Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeo

    good points about balance. and as far as a ship doing the minelaying a ship is a lot slower to turn than an MS and you dont want your mines following a pattern in their layout. or accidentally hitting a mine. enough distance between them that they dont chain explode but not enough that a ship that can carry MS can get between them without having to turn so hard its basically at a dead stop or have to shoot the mines. also a ship laying mines is easy game and you have to be careful your own MS or the ship dosnet run into the mines you just laid if an enemy attacks. you want to have the mine field in between you and the enemy when you are in combat. also that ship should be out patrolling either gaining ground on the enemy or better yet keeping the area secure for the minelayers then after the mines are laid fall back to the rest of the unit. but as far and just using a smaller ship for the job (or even the re-entry capsule off the Musai) and leaving MS to combat rolls entirely... yea.. much better idea...

    Zaku on kova luu.
    YOU WANT TO BE MORE THAN JUST A GRUNT? LEARN TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE!
    In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it. -Erwin Rommel
    They're on our right, they're on our left. They're in front of us, they're behind us; they cant get away from us this time -chesty puller
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    How useful would a Gelgoog Minelayer be for the Principality of Zeon

    Due to the balance issues of the Zaku II High Mobility Minelayer, let us change the subject a little. How about we talk about the practicality of a Gelgoog with a Minelayer backpack attached to it. (image below taken from Kusakusa Gunpla)

    gel2_14.jpg


 

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