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  1. #1

    A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Tragedy or Triumph


    Which of of Zeta Gundam ending do you prefer?

    Original

    https://youtu.be/luKWYA_jOlA?t=1225


    New Translation






    With regards to Char, we know that the AUEG vs Titans War and Kamille's fate in the anime had a lot to do with Char embracing Neo Zeon and assuming leadership of the faction. With the amended ending that Zeta A New Translation gives, it was said ( I can't remember by Tomino or not) that Char would still have justification to hate Earthnoids and want to purge it.



    However, what a lot of people take issue with is Char's turn to evil during Char's Counterattack. Genocide on a massive scale? Gihren Zabi, Ginias Sahalin, Jamitov Hymen and Bask Om used and embraced such tactics to achieve their goals. But Char? It seems really out of character for him.

  2. #2
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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    First of all, I (and plenty of other fans) don't put much stock or truth into A New Translation; many (as well as Sunrise and Bandai) consider it in an alternate continuity. Secondly, Char's Heel-face Turn has more to deal with his faith in humanity than his mentorship/friendship with Kamille. I have a thread that delves a bit deeper into why Char did what he did: http://www.gundamforums.com/showthre...-and-veterans).
    "You see, there's no need to wonder where your god is. Because he's right here! And he's fresh out of mercy!"
    -Kirito (SAO Abridged)

    "Well, what good is being a god if you can't smite some people?"
    - Epsilon Church

  3. #3

    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    Char's Heel-face Turn has more to deal with his faith in humanity than his mentorship/friendship with Kamille. I have a thread that delves a bit deeper into why Char did what he did: http://www.gundamforums.com/showthre...-and-veterans).
    Rewatched the episode from the scans you posted, as well as Char's speech to the world in Zeta. It is like you said. Char lost faith in humanity and wanted to accelerate humanity's evolution into Newtypes. He just needed to commit mass murder to accomplish it. A little evil(really a big evil), for a relatively bigger good; peace in the Universal Century.

    Too bad the folks in the UC never work out how to live in peace with one another. Then you have Gundam X answering the Newtype question. Since Tomino left that thread hanging after CCA.

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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Char made absolutely no sense in Gundam Zeta.

    I really think that those working on Gundam let the popularity of the character in the real world leak far too much into how he would be within his own world.

    I mean, this is a guy who-- on the mere possibility that maybe Degwin Zabi assassinated his father, maybe, after losing his oldest son and such... decided he would go on a blood-feud and murder an entire blood-line. And, well.. ultimately? For the most part he was relatively successful against the Federation, killing who knows how many people and turning the war in favor of Zeon.... and then... in terms of his "blood feud" who did he kill? Really just Garma and Kycillia... who perfectly respected and liked individuals and even if Degwin did in fact assassinate Char's father, they had nothing to do with it and were relatively morally upstanding. Otherwise he just managed to limp away as the survivor of most battles, usually by being a gutless coward who ran away at the first sign of danger and never did a damn thing to help any of his so-called allies.

    In other words-- while in the real world it might be really cool that there was this red zeon character who piloted a red mobile suit and maybe he was a New Type... or maybe he was just so good he could keep up with New Types and well... whatever else you could say about him... Within the actual universe of Gundam? He was a conniving, cowardly, piece of shit bastard who both sides should absolutely hate with a passion. The scene where Kamille was verbally jacking off Char in front of his face is one of the worst written things I have ever seen in an anime that I chose to watch.

    And the idea that the Earth Federation would turn on the Titans on the word of this piece of crap? Absolute bullshit!
    Zeon deciding that the way to end the war quickly in their favor was to drop a colony on Earth and that caused world-wide devastation and death. It is very likely that hundreds of millions died as a result. And after the war it only took a tiny regiment of Zeonic loyalists to nearly do it again!

    So the Titans decide that they would exterminate an entire colony if there were signs of rebellion? Yeah, totally not cool... yet, if I was a citizen of Earth in Gundam I think I would be pretty cool with that if it meant avoiding getting a colony dropped on Earth again. And they want a massive laser that can be used to blow up a colony or asteroid if anyone tries pulling that again? Again, perfectly understandable in context.

    The idea that Char revealing himself would mean that the entire universe would drop to their knees, suck him off and buy into whatever he claimed entirely without hesitation and question is just absolutely crap. It stands among countless plot points that go to show that the people making Gundam Zeta were complete idiots and utterly incapable of writing a decent story beyond having a couple sparks of good ideas.

    So, really... who the hell cares how it ended? Char's entirely role within it was entirely stupid and completely incongruent with the entirely irredeemable weaselly piece of crap that he was both before and after the series. Granted-- if we are forced to consider Char's counterattack, this absolute bungling of Char's character continued as it is absolutely inexplicable why and how anyone at all is following this complete douche into battle when he absolutely failed, screwed over or betrayed every single individual who had ever commanded, worked with him or served under him up to that point.
    [RP]Mobile Suit Gundam: War-Torn Horizons - Nobuyori Takeda, pilot of Elmeda (Tokugawa Knight Custom)

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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Amuro Aznable View Post
    Tragedy or Triumph


    Which of of Zeta Gundam ending do you prefer?
    I liked the original ending to zeta, SO dark, matches perfectly with the rest of zeta which is pretty darn bleak.
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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    First off jaster-jesek, watch your language. Heavy swears (f**k, s**t, etc.) are not permitted on this site. Secondly, Char's little phase in Zeta does make some bit of sense in this context: when Char first returned to the Earth Sphere (under the guise of Quattro), he saw that the Earth Federation was divided into two factions: those that wanted to continue waging war between the Earth and Space (Titans), and those that wanted to peace between Earth and Space (Anti-Earth Union Group). Opting to give humanity a chance, he decided to to join the A.E.U.G. When Blex Foler (leader and founder of the A.E.U.G.) died, he insisted that Char take the reins. During his speech at Dakar, he came forward not only as Char Aznable, but as Casval Rem Deikun. In Char's mind, the two are considered different people. Char Aznable is a career soldier with little regard for human life. Casval, on the other hand, emulated his father's hopes and dreams in that people can come and live together in space. At this point in his life, Char was at a crossroads: do I stop being Char and become Casval? Or better yet, do I stop piloting mobile suits in favor of being a leader and a politician. Char does not like politicians as he regards them as clowns. However, what stunned him was that at Dakar the Federation officials were willing to listen to him after he exposed the Titans brutality (like firing on the assembly with officials still inside). So he stayed on the A.E.U.G.... until the last battle of the Gryphs War. That battle really took a toll on Char's psyche as it showed despite all his efforts... it was all in vain. Though the Titans were destroyed, the A.E.U.G. - the best hope he had - was crippled and in no way to defend Earth from Axis Zeon. Not only that, but the loss of Kamille, the person he considered to be a surrogate son, took a toll on him. And so, he disappeared, biding his time as he waited out the Neo Zeon War. At the end of that conflict, Zeon tore itself apart thanks to Haman's and Glemmy's infighting. By now, Char believed that peace could no longer be attained... not unless the people of Earth could be forced to change by putting a metaphorical gun to their heads.
    Last edited by Zeta; January 19, 2018 at 6:40 PM.
    "You see, there's no need to wonder where your god is. Because he's right here! And he's fresh out of mercy!"
    -Kirito (SAO Abridged)

    "Well, what good is being a god if you can't smite some people?"
    - Epsilon Church

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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Multi-colored plastic cover is available in white colored colors of different colors which show color isolation
    Shields, boulders, rifles, and extra ammo repacks come with



    Just started to get into Gundam. Man! You are awesome! That Gundam is pretty sick!! Love it
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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    What does that have to do with this thread?

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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Char spent the entire war killing members of the Earth Federation and the only other thing he did was betray and kill his commanders who might have made peace with the Federation. Him suddenly being in favor of it for the convenience of one story is ridiculous. It is clear that no matter how much he decided he would kill the Zabi, he was determined to wipe out all life on Earth from the very beginning.

    But far more importantly-- it is impossible to justify from the perspective of the Earth Federation.
    These are politicians who have proved utterly ineffectual at stopping Zeon and had only been saved so far by magic boys somehow ending up with Gundams in their hands. The only thing they had done that had all seemed to stop the terrorism was setting up an counter-terrorist organization. Why would they, why should they give a crap that a single city was killed off when it had been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that failing to do so would result in the death of MILLIONS.

    And here comes the most wanted man in the world. Someone who killed more people who fought to protect Earth during the war than anyone else if we are to believe his hype in the original series.

    And what does he have to say? That they should turn on their own counter-terrorism unit for being too extreme. And his proof is that they are so determined to kill him, the single living human being most responsible for the most deaths in the world, that they are willing to destroy the military council to do it rather than cowing and bending to the terrorist's demands once they have that council under their gun.

    Oh. And you so totally know this guy is trustworthy, because apparently it is now completely public knowledge that he pretending to be one of the Zabi's friends... only to betray and murder him and hide it... then pretended to continue to be a loyal soldier until Zeon lost the war at which point he murdered the last known legitimate leader of Zeon, the one person who Earth could have negotiated with to stop the Zeonic terrorism up until this point....

    Oh, but you see... that is "okay" because it turns out that he is know claiming that he is the son of the original founder of Zeon, the man for whom it was named. A claim that, if REMOTELY convincing he could have come out and claimed years ago and personally stopped all Zeonic terrorism-- which he never did, because he just never really cared about stopping it.

    And in response to this, the ENTIRE EARTH declares fealty to him.

    It is a really badly written and stupid scenario. It is literally Osama Bin Laden bursting into the European Union, his forces seizing control of the council building and telling them that the CIA has been too extreme in their fighting of Al-Qaeda and even wiped out whole villages that were leaning towards joining ISIS but had't yet armed themselves. And just look at how reckless the Americans are being in fighting his forces to try to take back control of the building.

    And so, in light of this, the entire European Union declares that it is now part of ISIS and every single last individual in all of Europe immediately complies with this order and turns their guns on their former allies.


    Oh-- and the really crazy thing is that it would have been pretty easy to fix half the issue...
    All that would have needed to be done would be to have Sayla be the one to talk to the generals. Because as far as anyone knows, she was the last surviving child of the founder of Zeon, she actually worked on the Federation side as part of the war effort-- not only that, she was serving aboard the very ship that saved the entire Federation.
    There would have been every reason in the world for them to hear Sayla out-- and, moreover, she could obviously bend the ear of Char as well. Have her be the one to negotiate a pull-out of the support for the Titans and sway at least some Federation support more towards the Anti-Earth... oh... wait... no. It is still stupid that the Earth Federation would ever support an organization whose singularly stated goal in their name is the elimination of the Earth itself.
    [RP]Mobile Suit Gundam: War-Torn Horizons - Nobuyori Takeda, pilot of Elmeda (Tokugawa Knight Custom)

  10. #10

    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    ^ Damn, bruh! You really went in on Char.



    I was thinking about Gundam Wing and how it retold the UC stories of MSG, Zeta and CCA in a compressed 50 episodes. Unsurprisingly, ZZ was skipped over. However, it got me thinking. In the finale to Zeta, Char tells Fa and Kamille that the old generation cannot build the future. We know Char was placing all his eggs in the Kamille basket and Fa was someone he saw potential in. At the end of Zeta, Kamille lost his mind and Char lost his faith.

    Now, we know Char was supposed to be in ZZ, initially. Plans for that never materialized. Presumably because the show didn't have direction early on. But, Judau and his friends were all made Newtypes and were all a young and promising direction for the future.

    If Char had been in ZZ and if he had met them, do you think he would've found the same hope and inspiration he found in Kamille? Or was it too late for that?

    Recall that Judau gives up and runs away to the neutral space of Jupiter at the end of ZZ, himself. So there is that to think about.

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    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Amuro Aznable View Post
    ^ Damn, bruh! You really went in on Char.



    I was thinking about Gundam Wing and how it retold the UC stories of MSG, Zeta and CCA in a compressed 50 episodes. Unsurprisingly, ZZ was skipped over. However, it got me thinking. In the finale to Zeta, Char tells Fa and Kamille that the old generation cannot build the future. We know Char was placing all his eggs in the Kamille basket and Fa was someone he saw potential in. At the end of Zeta, Kamille lost his mind and Char lost his faith.

    Now, we know Char was supposed to be in ZZ, initially. Plans for that never materialized. Presumably because the show didn't have direction early on. But, Judau and his friends were all made Newtypes and were all a young and promising direction for the future.

    If Char had been in ZZ and if he had met them, do you think he would've found the same hope and inspiration he found in Kamille? Or was it too late for that?

    Recall that Judau gives up and runs away to the neutral space of Jupiter at the end of ZZ, himself. So there is that to think about.
    Now that is an interesting thought. My best guess is that, much how Judau "cooperated" alongside Bright Noa and rest of the crew of the Argama, Char and Judau & company might not get along so well due to the... um... unorthodox nature of Judau's crew. But perhaps, later on down the line, Char could see the potential to do good within Judau and the rest of Shangri-La group, and could very well support them and aid them with his guidance.
    "You see, there's no need to wonder where your god is. Because he's right here! And he's fresh out of mercy!"
    -Kirito (SAO Abridged)

    "Well, what good is being a god if you can't smite some people?"
    - Epsilon Church

  12. #12

    Re: A Tale of Two Zetas and Char's Heel Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    Now that is an interesting thought. My best guess is that, much how Judau "cooperated" alongside Bright Noa and rest of the crew of the Argama, Char and Judau & company might not get along so well due to the... um... unorthodox nature of Judau's crew. But perhaps, later on down the line, Char could see the potential to do good within Judau and the rest of Shangri-La group, and could very well support them and aid them with his guidance.
    Yeah, I agree. I'd have to rewatch early Zeta and early ZZ to see which party was more obnoxious. Kamille with his tantrums and drama or Judau with his obnoxious behavior and disregard for convention. Kamille helped steal a Mark II for the AEUG, but Judau took the Zeta several times without permission and took the ZZ several times alone to (Chara's ship and then to AXIS) rescue Leina. Two sides of the same rebel behavior.

    Roux was no Emma Sheen, but she had potential. Elle was good too, but I'd place her equal to Fa in terms of piloting. Mondo, Beecha and Iino blur together and didn't really stand out.


 

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