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Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 8:03 PM
Zeon's conquest spreads far and wide throughout the galaxy. Taking Space Colonies, Bases and fortresses alike, and even Earth itself. It seems like all is lsot against the might of Zeon... until a sith from a long long time ago, and a galaxy far far away sets his eyes on a new prize.

Darth Vader descends to face Zeon in battle. How much does it take for Zeon to defeat him?

keep in mind we are talking completely broken Comic/Video game/EU OP Star Wars rules, where Darth Vaders force is strong enough to bring down Giant Space Ships or completely implode the machinery, choke people out from very very long distances, sense basically anything, and Lightsabers beat everything. Can slice through any metal, and beats any other beam that's not also a Lightsaber.

How many zakus does it take? what Zeon unit is minimal in taking on Vader? Could Vader theoretically take on anything Zeon can dish out? Discuss.

Zeon's RedComet
June 17, 2015, 8:12 PM
Not Darth Vader Vs. Iron Mask

Or Empire Vs. Cosmo Babylonia?

0/10.

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 8:18 PM
Not Darth Vader Vs. Iron Mask

Or Empire Vs. Cosmo Babylonia?

0/10.

Ah yes. UC fans show their reading dyslexia again. here's bigger lettering for you

"Darth Vader vs Zeon; What Does it Take? Also other Gundam vs Star Wars Talk."

Zeon's RedComet
June 17, 2015, 8:20 PM
Ah yes. UC fans show their reading dyslexia again. here's bigger lettering for you

"Darth Vader vs Zeon; What Does it Take? Also other Gundam vs Star Wars Talk."

Oh wow, and now we have CE fans not knowing a joke when they see it.

inb4youwereonlyjoking2

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 8:23 PM
Oh wow, and now we have CE fans not knowing a joke when they see it.

inb4youwereonlyjoking2

Who's joking ;)

anyways, go ahead and get on subject again before ZRC fulfills his destiny and makes it solely about CE as usual.

is this Iron Mask with his forces we are talking? or Iron mask in Rafflesia?

Zeon's RedComet
June 17, 2015, 8:25 PM
Who's joking ;)

anyways, go ahead and get on subject again before ZRC fulfills his destiny and makes it solely about CE as usual.

is this Iron Mask with his forces we are talking? or Iron mask in Rafflesia?

It was just a joke that Iron Mask sounds like Vader due to his mask.

As well as the F91 OST being a Star Wars rip.

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I wasn't thinking that deeply about it. Esp since it's one sided since well Vader has the force and that crap is insanely OP. Esp in the EU stuff from what I know.

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 8:31 PM
It is. thats why I generally go with how much of a factions forces would it take to do vader in. but lets start smaller and work our way up this discussion.

The Empire Forces, like Tie Fighters/Bombers/Interceptors and At-At/STs/ and etc mechs and their other such vehicles and machinery vs Zeon forces we know it. No team heroes, just straight grunt warfare. what do they fare against each other.

Zeon's RedComet
June 17, 2015, 8:32 PM
On foot? Probbably the Empire... (inb4stormtrooperscanthits***) if only because laser blasters. Mechs vs Mechs? I'd go Zeon most likely.

Zaku
June 17, 2015, 8:46 PM
Nuke Vader, G3 the death star, and Minovsky particle their tec to death. then call it a day and go get a beer.

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no Hero's? the no Vader? if Vader is there then Luke is a Zeon.

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http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Zaku185/6002f77bba0b9f14_zps2efraoc1.png (http://s764.photobucket.com/user/Zaku185/media/6002f77bba0b9f14_zps2efraoc1.png.html)

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 9:05 PM
Well, tough part is that Star Wars mechanics have shields around them, pretty definitively. But! the majority of SW tech is laser/beam based, while the bulk of Zeons weaponry is indeed ballistic. Look at how Empire Mechs like the AT-AT can just tank those laser shot. However the proton torpedo is an armament that fared much better against such things.

Thing is though, I do think Empire's arsenal of weaponry such as the TIE series and the various AT's would all and all prove to out do Zeons forces, just on a practical level. I mean, TIEs would prolly wreck Zakus, and most of everything else like Goufs, Doms, and such.

there was talk in a previous discussion that fighter Jets and such would absolutely wreck giant robots in real life. well, supes ditto for that.

At anyrate, Main Empire heroes I'd say are; Vader, Emperor, Boba Fett (hired BH and all)
and Zeons would be Char, Ramba, and Dozle.

naturally more that can be listed. or i can just list Starkiller, and all is lost for Zeon.

Zaku
June 17, 2015, 9:36 PM
in atmosphere yes but not in space. it would only come down to who is faster and turn time, so Zeon is still in it to win it.

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and the Gelgoog series has Beam weapons. no telling if a shield made to deflect lasers would stop a blast of plasma encased in a field of ions.

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and anything the empire has ground based mech wise would be easy pickings for any well armed much more agile MS. brother Dom would own dat ass.

Zeta
June 17, 2015, 9:41 PM
I don't know. I think Zeon's Zaku could beat a TIE Fighter. For one the TIE Fighter has no shields, so it's completely vulnerable to the physical weapons of Zeon (i.e. the 120mm machine guns, the big bazooka, etc.). Secondly, while the TIE Fighter is highly maneuverable, that edge goes right out the window when dealing with a mobile suit as a mobile suit has a zero-turn radius while the TIE Fighter has a small turning radius. Another thing stacks against the TIE Fighter is the fact that they can only move forward like any typical space fighter, while a mobile suit could move in any 360 degree direction. If you want a good look at how a space fighter fares against a mobile suit, watch the first 3 minutes of the first Gundam: The Origin OVA.

Zaku
June 17, 2015, 9:47 PM
also i can shoot in one direction with my main weapon while flying in another direction. TIE fighters have to line up with the target.

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 11:16 PM
yeah, but TIEs are also more mobile and harder to hit. could easily zip by enemy fire, get its sights in, and take'em down. I dont zooks and rifles hitting them easily, nor machines guns getting the concentrated fire on one needed to take it down.

but also i think TIEs can aim separately. I seem to recall Darth Vader using an aiming reticule. still limited to like a 90 degree cone as it has to be forward, but it isn't stapled into a single line of shooting.

edit: Also, while the normal TIE Fighter doesn't have shielding, many of the TIE series does.

Zaku
June 17, 2015, 11:23 PM
wut? did you read anything Zeta wrote? no tie fighters are significatly less mobile. MS have a Zero turn radius can stop on a dime, and can shoot while flying backwards. and about tie fighters not having to line up the entire aircraft to hit. ive seen no evidence of that.

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and darth vaders reticle was dead center of the fighter and did not move.

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 11:33 PM
wut? did you read anything Zeta wrote? no tie fighters are significatly less mobile. MS have a Zero turn radius can stop on a dime, and can shoot while flying backwards. and about tie fighters not having to line up the entire aircraft to hit. ive seen no evidence of that.

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and darth vaders reticle was dead center of the fighter and did not move.

thats with the thought that the TIE Fighters are gonna be fighting the same way as a Mobile Suit would, and they wont. They're gonna basically use Guerrilla Tactics. they'll pick targets from a distance, swoop in quickly firing. Any movement to the side and backwards a mobile suit performs will be easily adjusted for the TIE pilots. As i said before, i find it hard to believe Zooks and beam rifles and weapons that might 1hko a TIE will hit easily, and a machine gun will take a few hits to take it down. But TIEs laser have a better balance of hitting power and speed, and the mobile suits are far bigger targets, easier to hit.

Sure, the mobile suits can sway and strafe a bit to dodge, but i think you're giving them too much credit if you assume they're gonna pull a char aznable and just start dodging all attacks like that. they arent gonna display that kind of agility doing so, except maybe a Dom on Earth. they have to dodge a shot burst and then miraculous line up a shot of their own and take it like immediately after. It be like the zakus would fighting better equipped Balls, with the mobility more resembling of the Core Booster.

Zeta
June 17, 2015, 11:36 PM
To be fair, Lord Vader flies a customized high performance TIE Advanced and not a standard TIE Fighter. I also forgot to take Minovsky physics into account as the spread of Minovsky particles would inherently screw with the scanners of many a starfighter, unless they have some sort of electromagnetic shielding (and last I checked, SW starfighters don't have that).

This whole discussion got me thinking, who would win in a space dogfight? Char Aznable in his MS-14S Gelgoog Commander Type, or Darth Vader in his Seinar Systems TIE Advanced?

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 11:37 PM
To be fair, Lord Vader flies a customized high performance TIE Advanced and not a standard TIE Fighter. I also forgot to take Minovsky physics into account as the spread of Minovsky particles would inherently screw with the scanners of many a starfighter, unless they have some sort of electromagnetic shielding (and last I checked, SW starfighters don't have that).

This whole discussion got me thinking, who would win in a space dogfight? Char Aznable in his MS-14S Gelgoog Commander Type, or Darth Vader in his Seinar Systems TIE Advanced?

can Vader Just choke Char in his cockpit?

Zeta
June 17, 2015, 11:38 PM
No. However, he does have force reflexes and Char has Newtype extra sensory perception.

Gundam_Asgard
June 17, 2015, 11:42 PM
No. However, he does have force reflexes and Char has Newtype extra sensory perception.

well, Vaders Force powers is among the strongest, while Chars is among the weaker Newtypes... so vader wins that department.

The Gelgoog is prolly a better built machine however. and a char custom at that....

but... its hard to deny them powers Vader has...

Zaku
June 17, 2015, 11:53 PM
thats with the thought that the TIE Fighters are gonna be fighting the same way as a Mobile Suit would, and they wont. They're gonna basically use Guerrilla Tactics. they'll pick targets from a distance, swoop in quickly firing. Any movement to the side and backwards a mobile suit performs will be easily adjusted for the TIE pilots. As i said before, i find it hard to believe Zooks and beam rifles and weapons that might 1hko a TIE will hit easily, and a machine gun will take a few hits to take it down. But TIEs laser have a better balance of hitting power and speed, and the mobile suits are far bigger targets, easier to hit.

Sure, the mobile suits can sway and strafe a bit to dodge, but i think you're giving them too much credit if you assume they're gonna pull a char aznable and just start dodging all attacks like that. they arent gonna display that kind of agility doing so, except maybe a Dom on Earth. they have to dodge a shot burst and then miraculous line up a shot of their own and take it like immediately after. It be like the zakus would fighting better equipped Balls, with the mobility more resembling of the Core Booster.

even if they do pick up targets from a distance and "swoop in" the MS are no just going to sit there and wait. and once the TIE fighters DO get in closer the MS have the full advantage. the TIEs lasers are no real advantage when you consider a 120mm rifle round WILL one shot kill. therefore they are on equal ground when it comes to firepower. the MS are going to close the distance faster than the TIE pilots will be expecting and each one of them will only get one shot off anyways then the MS clean house. also as Zeta said Minovsky particles will prevent the TIE pilots from picking up on them at a distance anyways.

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and Zeta my bias aside i think i would have to give that to Char. but not by much. the reason being ive never seen Vader block any blaster shots from closer than 20 yards. telling me he does not have crazy fast reflexes. he does have the force but if i remember correctly it does not give him instant reflexes. he is only so good with a light saber because he trained with it for so many years. and as slow as blaster shots fly anything over 20 yards is not that impressive really. and if he does not have instant reflexes and is in his souped up tie fighter i think the Gelgoog would just plain out maneuver him. for the reasons we already mentioned.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 12:02 AM
they can aim manually still. if they just shoot forward, as you said, its not nearly as crippling for them. and the TIEs are not just gonna fly directly into enemy fire either, they can dodge too. they can dodge and still stay on course. Only difference is TIEs have rapid firing laser/beam weaponry and Zeons forces do not.

and I do not believe a single 120mm shot would take it down. in real life 120mm cannon like artillery like an AA Gun wouldn't guarantee a 1hko, especially on bigger targets. Now take into account that a zakus machine gun is NOT a fucking cannon. its meant for rapid firing shots, so a single hit doesn't compare. Now take into account the stronger titanium armor a TIE uses. While msot of Zeons units are only Steel. given a stronger form of Steel, but still weaker at a base.

Zaku
June 18, 2015, 12:17 AM
they can aim manually still. if they just shoot forward, as you said, its not nearly as crippling for them. and the TIEs are not just gonna fly directly into enemy fire either, they can dodge too. they can dodge and still stay on course. Only difference is TIEs have rapid firing laser/beam weaponry and Zeons forces do not.

and I do not believe a single 120mm shot would take it down. in real life 120mm cannon like artillery like an AA Gun wouldn't guarantee a 1hko, especially on bigger targets. Now take into account that a zakus machine gun is NOT a fucking cannon. its meant for rapid firing shots, so a single hit doesn't compare. Now take into account the stronger titanium armor a TIE uses. While msot of Zeons units are only Steel. given a stronger form of Steel, but still weaker at a base.

prove the main weapons can move independently from the aircraft. and they have no choice to fly into the enemies fire. they are in space there in no cover or concealment the MS are not just going to shoot at random and the TIE fighters cannot laterally strafe they have to turn. and they do not have a zero turn radius so they are easy to put a lead on when they turn. even if they werent the Zaku has a targeting computer. it does the math for you.

the 120mm IS a cannon. do you realize how large a round that is? no only that but its a necked round so it has a shit ton of kinetic energy. and it is not intended for fully automatic fire. it is a semi automatic weapon. and titanium is hard. that does not make it "strong" its lightweight and brittle. why do you think that armor is not made of it? and the steel Zakus are made of is tough as hell but its downside is that it is heavier.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 12:31 AM
prove the main weapons can move independently from the aircraft. and they have no choice to fly into the enemies fire. they are in space there in no cover or concealment the MS are not just going to shoot at random and the TIE fighters cannot laterally strafe they have to turn. and they do not have a zero turn radius so they are easy to put a lead on when they turn. even if they werent the Zaku has a targeting computer. it does the math for you.

the 120mm IS a cannon. do you realize how large a round that is? no only that but its a necked round so it has a shit ton of kinetic energy. and it is not intended for fully automatic fire. it is a semi automatic weapon. and titanium is hard. that does not make it "strong" its lightweight and brittle. why do you think that armor is not made of it? and the steel Zakus are made of is tough as hell but its downside is that it is heavier.

well take this with a grain of salt, but lets remember titanium in SW is not like Titanium to us. just like how Gundam Titanium "alloy" isn't either.

but if you wanna bring science and math and numbers into this, i can really break the argument.

The Tie Fighter's maximum acceleration is 4,100 G, and max atmospheric speed is 1,200 km/h.

the zaku's is .59 G's for acceleration and 88 km/h at running speed.

and before you argue that hyperspeed, no. TIE Fighters lack the function.

now in a war aspect, lets talk numbers. Empire has enormous funds and resources, it being no problem with numbers. Zeon has problems with such resources, and more trouble with production. TIE Fighters and such are of very low cost to the Empire, and easily produced vastly. Zeon can't exactly say the same thing. So its safe to say that the Empires numbers are going to completely overwhelm, with machines that completely outperform.

Zeon's RedComet
June 18, 2015, 12:35 AM
well take this with a grain of salt, but lets remember titanium in SW is not like Titanium to us. just like how Gundam Titanium "alloy" isn't either.

but if you wanna bring science and math and numbers into this, i can really break the argument.

The Tie Fighter's maximum acceleration is 4,100 G, and max atmospheric speed is 1,200 km/h.

the zaku's is .59 G's for acceleration and 88 km/h at running speed.

and before you argue that hyperspeed, no. TIE Fighters lack the function.

now in a war aspect, lets talk numbers. Empire has enormous funds and resources, it being no problem with numbers. Zeon has problems with such resources, and more trouble with production. TIE Fighters and such are of very low cost to the Empire, and easily produced vastly. Zeon can't exactly say the same thing. So its safe to say that the Empires numbers are going to completely overwhelm, with machines that completely outperform.

Well they do have a big swath of galaxy to recruit from stand story reason they'd have more man power and resources. Honestly I do t see how you did t see thsi would be a one sided fight towards the empire from the get go.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 12:44 AM
Well they do have a big swath of galaxy to recruit from stand story reason they'd have more man power and resources. Honestly I do t see how you did t see thsi would be a one sided fight towards the empire from the get go.

lol yeah. and thing is, i really didnt want to bring those numbers into it. Id like to think its more leveled than than that. I try to tell myself "well thats obvious BS. prolly fast but not THAT fast." but I have to look at stuff like; the X-Wing Starfighter able to fly out of atmosphere, and make the trip from Hoth to Dagobah in... maybe Days. ridiculousness.

Best I can say to fool myself is that chances are these speeds are for a long travel mode, and wouldn't be practically used in battle.

even with that argument standing... its still like... ridiculous faster. i could fool myself to saying in practical battle maybe more like 4.1 Gs. and that's still obliterating better.

Zeon's RedComet
June 18, 2015, 12:44 AM
Well in these topics numbers have too come into it, otherwise you might as well make it a popularity poll.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 12:49 AM
Well in these topics numbers have too come into it, otherwise you might as well make it a popularity poll.

lol. its a tough balance of going by feats and science and stuff. no real way. its like this time was arguing Wing tech vs SEED tech. and the Wing side was all saying their gundams are super light therefore faster, and tallgeese 15 Gs and stuff. and i argued they make it sounds like being light automatically makes you fast. if you wanna argue speed, lets talk about how freedom went from the Plants to Earth in like... maybe an hour. and how Freedom could let Lacus' shuttle go off, fight an entire battle, than fly and catch up to the shuttle. and this is being 10x heavier than what a Wing unit is.

Zaku
June 18, 2015, 12:59 AM
Well in these topics numbers have too come into it, otherwise you might as well make it a popularity poll.
exactly this. although Asgard does have a point. if the tie fighters tried to engage the MS at that speed they would just run right into them before any of the pilots could react.

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lol. its a tough balance of going by feats and science and stuff. no real way. its like this time was arguing Wing tech vs SEED tech. and the Wing side was all saying their gundams are super light therefore faster, and tallgeese 15 Gs and stuff. and i argued they make it sounds like being light automatically makes you fast. if you wanna argue speed, lets talk about how freedom went from the Plants to Earth in like... maybe an hour. and how Freedom could let Lacus' shuttle go off, fight an entire battle, than fly and catch up to the shuttle. and this is being 10x heavier than what a Wing unit is.

i keep trying to tell people gundam is REALLY inconsistent. 95% of it comes down to what you can physically tell just by looking at an MS going off our real life physics. like the gundam wiki is inconsistent as well.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 1:04 AM
exactly this. although Asgard does have a point. if the tie fighters tried to engage the MS at that speed they would just run right into them before any of the pilots could react.

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i keep trying to tell people gundam is REALLY inconsistent. 95% of it comes down to what you can physically tell just by looking at an MS going off our real life physics. like the gundam wiki is inconsistent as well.

lol, well if that's the case, under the argument of 1 crash takes out 1 unit, The Empire wins xD

yeah. because lets face it, the writer who make up the science in sci-fi and animes and various things prolly really dont look into too much, dont think about it too ahrd.

remember ine time I read a really good argument that tallgeese prolly more likely only like 7 Gs

Zaku
June 18, 2015, 1:33 AM
well yes but only because the empire has waaaayyyy more man power. and comparing UC to UC sort of works because we can drag it down to reality because its almost already their with a few exceptions. but yea. most of the time it just boils down to "this one looks cooler therefore its "stronger"" some things you can absolutely say are an advantage but in combat you have to adapt to the situation. a sniper does not need a shit ton of armor and a mini gun ya know. there is rarely a case where something is just plain better. like the AK vs AR debate. one is not better than the other. one is just better at some things than the other.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 1:59 AM
indeed. but at anyrate. with the humongous lowering of TIE speed in combat, i'm still standing by the immense speed it DOES display in battle is far far greater than not only the Zeon units, but also what Zeon is use to fighting. they're gonna struggle greatly to accurately hit targets like those.

Zaku
June 18, 2015, 2:19 AM
true that crazy speed is a game changer. but the MS can still out maneuver, fire in multiple directions while strafing, and stop on a dime. also minovsky particles are going to make them hard to detect at longer ranges so the TIE fighters have to stay in close and the MS have a damn good advantage at close range. so the MS still have a good chance its just not as huge a gap as before. looking at this from the TIE fighter pilots prospective they would do best to single a MS out and do their best to stay behind them but the MS is going to realize the TIE fighters are faster and not try to out run them. they will stay in one spot fire strafe fire, quick jerky movements. the TIE fighters will have to keep coming around and re aligning themselves to fire and the MS are going to be juking and jiving their asses off so in that time the TIE fighters will be vulnerable. it will come down to how fast the TIE pilot can line up the shot fire and hope the MS pilot does not juke or jive in that instant, while the MS pilot is firing back. and while the tie fighter is fast as hell the MS pilot may be just damn good enough to get a hit in while its turning. the thing has to bank like a conventional aircraft. and the MS pilots can spam the shit out of them while they are turning and hope to hit then while the TIE pilot comes around juke and jive while the tie is in a linear approach take it out. if the tie pilot decides to start lining up for the shot further away the MS pilot gets more time to shoot as does the tie and like i said the MS will be moving laterally and if the tie pilot decides to get closer before lining up to take the shot then the MS pilot gets an easier shot on him. and if both pilots miss somehow then while the tie is flying by the MS can simply turn or shoot and scoot.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 4:06 AM
you keep saying "turn on a dime," and im calling some hyperbole on that. they are big and clunky, and cannot turn on a dime. they really don't move with the same grace and fluentness as we humans do just cause they're humanoid. On Earth, the argument is really moot, as they gotta use footing to turn, and those big feet and heavy body ain't swiftly turning around like you just pressed Back-X in RE4. and in space they gotta use AMBAC, which is admittedly pretty good at it, but the speeds TIEs are gonna be coming at them, it still ain't lightning fast reflexes, it still takes time for the body and movements to gyrate. Its more comparable to an Astronaut moving in space than a person moving normally. Again, its great for fighting other mobile suits, but fleets of Starfighters are a different story altogether. and they certainly dont stop on a dime. When they thrust one direction and wanna stop, they gotta balance with some opposite force, because in space that's how shit works, and even on Earth there's momentum factors, especially for such heavy units.

Zaku
June 18, 2015, 4:28 AM
you are assuming i mean stop completely and change direction. not only that but for firing you are assuming i mean turn the MS completely around then fire. all you have to do is turn the torso around half way then the arm can reach the rest of the way. and Zaku R-1 R-2 the Gelgoog and any other MS that advanced and with maneuvering thrusters in conjunction with AMABC can turn damn fast. and for avoiding fire you dont have to be faster than the blaster fire. just faster than the tie pilots trigger finger.

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but yea on the ground Dom is the one getting all the kills. but then again as slow and clunky as the ATATs and the ATSTs are im not worried. also they suffer the no arms problem. so they have to turn the whole upper torso to fire.

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and on the ground MS can use a thruster assisted jump.

Zeta
June 18, 2015, 5:03 AM
In regard to the AT-AT and the AT-ST having to turn their whole body to fire, not necessarily. Both vehicles can turn the "head" portion to aim with their respective main guns, though the AT-ST as a much greater turning arc while the AT-AT has a more limited arc. That being said, two of the AT-AT guns have an auto lock-on feature.

Really to solve this dilemma of who would win between a TIE Fighter and a Zaku II, I would need to need to analyze the motion physics of each craft. It's not just a matter of speed. When an airplane or car makes a U-turn, the distance between the starting point and the ending point (which makes a diameter) is the turning radius. Mind you, both objects have to be moving forward. Now mobile suits can turn on their central axis, thus they can rotate. If it cannot turn on it's central axis, it cannot rotate.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
June 18, 2015, 5:28 AM
How i didnt find this thread sooner?

The fact is that Zeon is doomed to loose the war the moment its fleet is destroyed, Galactic Empire far superior number of vessels and fighters.

Though one on one MS has the edge in mobility over the TIEs (since they are apparently used like they are in atmosphere) since like previously stated, MS can turn around faster. However this advantage is meaningless when facing superior numbers, where attackers can substitute their lack of maneuverability with multiple attackers.

Hell, even EF and Zeon combinend couldnt beat GE. GE wielded 25,000 Imperial class Star Destroyers alone.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130320005623/starwars/images/8/88/ISDIIESB.png
Yeah, these things. Imperial Navy has Millions of vessels.

On the ground, well Gundam factions arent doing well either. Empire has again edge in numbers and tech. Imperial AT-ATs are shown to be impervious to most energy weapons, bar few weak points and have very powerful laser cannons. And they arent operating alone. Smaller walkers and tanks are there to support the big guys, And lets not forget the hundreds of millions of Stormtroopers that are better armed and trained than a typical EF conscripts.

No matter how you cut it, Zeon or EF cant win.



.

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indeed. but at anyrate. with the humongous lowering of TIE speed in combat, i'm still standing by the immense speed it DOES display in battle is far far greater than not only the Zeon units, but also what Zeon is use to fighting. they're gonna struggle greatly to accurately hit targets like those.

You know that space fighters where a thing in UC and Zeon forces fought against almost exclusively space fighters during the opening moths of the war in space? And just like TIEs, they behaved like they where still in atmosphere, AKA longer turning, more linear movements etc. Im 100% sure Zeon trainers and military planners had calculated tactics and training to Specifically counter the direct opponent of your new Weapon.

Im not saying that TIEs arent gonna win, since they are, but you are kinda glancing over this detail.

Zeta
June 18, 2015, 5:28 AM
Also, being faster isn't necessarily a good thing. Take for example the air war during the Vietnam War in the 1960's. At the beginning, the US Air Force relied upon aircraft that were faster and used missiles to engage targets at long-range. In theory this should have worked, but as history tells us, it didn't. Instead, the American pilots were facing off against aircraft that were slower, but could out maneuver them in a dogfight, getting behind them and shooting down the Americans with machine guns. This is because if you move slower, it is easier to turn. This is why it's easier to turn an aircraft at slower speeds than it is to turn an aircraft at higher speeds. So a TIE Fighter could be blazing fast, but that speed means nothing if a mobile suit could out-turn it just by being slower.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
June 18, 2015, 5:31 AM
Also, being faster isn't necessarily a good thing. Take for example the air war during the Vietnam War in the 1960's. At the beginning, the US Air Force relied upon aircraft that were faster and used missiles to engage targets at long-range. In theory this should have worked, but as history tells us, it didn't. Instead, the American pilots were facing off against aircraft that were slower, but could out maneuver them in a dogfight, getting behind them and shooting down the Americans with machine guns. This is because if you move slower, it is easier to turn. This is why it's easier to turn an aircraft at slower speeds than it is to turn an aircraft at higher speeds. So a TIE Fighter could be blazing fast, but that speed means nothing if a mobile suit could out-turn it just by being slower.
On one vs one situations, yes. But lets face it, TIEs are never gonna engage the MSes one on one.

Zeta
June 18, 2015, 5:35 AM
On one vs one situations, yes. But lets face it, TIEs are never gonna engage the MSes one on one.

Hmmm... maybe. I mean, when do you see fighter formations actually hold their formation once the dogfight begins? Air battles (and to an extent, space battles) become really chaotic once the fighting starts.

Zeon's RedComet
June 18, 2015, 5:37 AM
Even then it's not like Zeon will hold out that long against the Sheer Numbers...

...At least not until the big Zam is mass produced.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
June 18, 2015, 5:42 AM
Hmmm... maybe. I mean, when do you see fighter formations actually hold their formation once the dogfight begins? Air battles (and to an extent, space battles) become really chaotic once the fighting starts.
True, larger formations tend to get split when entering combat. However, smaller wings can retain communication and coordinate with each other even in hectic furballs. If Imperials can keep commucation going regardless od Minovsky particles, they can use their superior numbers effectively.

- - - Updated - - -


Even then it's not like Zeon will hold out that long against the Sheer Numbers...

...At least not until the big Zam is mass produced.
Enter LaughingDozleZabi.png here>

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 2:41 PM
GE has a huge advantage on ground too. First off, lets talk normal men. even in big mechanical battles there is still infantry and such. in which i turn your attention to the Imperial Shock Trooper
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090106041601/starwars/images/9/9c/StormShock.png
These guys' missile launchers are gonna wreck even mobile suits far easier than any of Zeons foot infantry will with their RPGs and such. and then take into account stuff such like Swoop bikes they can use for mobility.

and then we have vehicular combat-
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051007115449/starwars/images/3/3e/IFT-T.jpg
the TX-120T Fighter Tank. Heavy Beam weaponry and ballistic artillery, faster than Dom at 193 km/h normal, and over 300 using boosts (Doms are 90 at running and 240 at hover).

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101031032744/starwars/images/3/34/ATMPvsMarek.jpg
All Terrain Missile Platform (AT-MP) an AT-ST variant, i'd like to see the barrage of a line-up of these raining down on Zeon forces.

But above all else, this is the definitive winner;
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081012232104/starwars/images/9/9b/TIE_Bomber.jpg
The TIE Bomber. Because the TIE Series is very usable in atmosphere. and these things will easily do a bomb run all over Zeons ground forces.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
June 18, 2015, 2:50 PM
GE has a huge advantage on ground too. First off, lets talk normal men. even in big mechanical battles there is still infantry and such. in which i turn your attention to the Imperial Shock Trooper
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090106041601/starwars/images/9/9c/StormShock.png
These guys' missile launchers are gonna wreck even mobile suits far easier than any of Zeons foot infantry will with their RPGs and such. and then take into account stuff such like Swoop bikes they can use for mobility.

and then we have vehicular combat-
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051007115449/starwars/images/3/3e/IFT-T.jpg
the TX-120T Fighter Tank. Heavy Beam weaponry and ballistic artillery, faster than Dom at 193 km/h normal, and over 300 using boosts (Doms are 90 at running and 240 at hover).

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101031032744/starwars/images/3/34/ATMPvsMarek.jpg
All Terrain Missile Platform (AT-MP) an AT-ST variant, i'd like to see the barrage of a line-up of these raining down on Zeon forces.

But above all else, this is the definitive winner;
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081012232104/starwars/images/9/9b/TIE_Bomber.jpg
The TIE Bomber. Because the TIE Series is very usable in atmosphere. and these things will easily do a bomb run all over Zeons ground forces.
Yeah, Zeon cant really into ground units, so they will get rekt badly. Hell, even if Feds and Zeeks would band together, they still couldnt beat GE. Not in space, not on Earth.

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 2:56 PM
They'll pretty much be matched at ever end. man power. weaponry. I mean hell, Big Zam? meet Death Star. I'd prolly say GE is pretty unstoppable on the level of just their Fleet of Star Destroyers alone. They simply just have superior numbers, resources, and machinery.

and on the subject of OYW having space fighters too. Not on the same level that the Starfighters are. not in numbers nor performance

Dom Tropen MS-09D
June 18, 2015, 3:21 PM
We need something more potent to defeat the Empire.......
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lDQ7hXMLxGc/0.jpg
I know the soviets from Red Alert!
Their legions of conscripts and armored bears shall make quick work of the walkers
http://p1.pichost.me/i/21/1439256.jpg
In the air, MIGs and Kirovs shall rain hell upon those hapless souls!

http://img.wallpaperstock.net:81/red-alert-2-wallpapers_19871_1600x1200.jpg

If that somehow fails, we can send in the psychic Lenin look a like and over acting Tim Curry!
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cnc/images/9/94/Curryra3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081207152940
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/cnc/images/f/fa/Yuri_red_alert.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120226190519

This plan is flawless! Victory will be ours in hours, cause no one can counter The Red Alert Soviets basassery!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OiOvUQ51Q&index=1&list=RDj7OiOvUQ51Q

Gundam_Asgard
June 18, 2015, 3:27 PM
If all else fails, they can alternate history using... their... Timemachine!

Zeta
June 21, 2015, 6:30 AM
You know, the more I think about a theoretical battle between Char and Vader, the more think that it'll end in a draw. This clip pretty much seals how much of an ace pilot Vader really is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdI86nfib3M

With his TIE Advanced and his impressive piloting skills, he might actually be able to go toe-to-toe with a mobile suit.

Riah
July 3, 2015, 6:03 PM
You know, the more I think about a theoretical battle between Char and Vader, the more think that it'll end in a draw. This clip pretty much seals how much of an ace pilot Vader really is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdI86nfib3M

With his TIE Advanced and his impressive piloting skills, he might actually be able to go toe-to-toe with a mobile suit.
http://i.gyazo.com/3391870f0ec21db0aab5141b752162df.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/c0a48d3e71af5b8e282ec980d338174d.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/d8d79c37686a9fbd0dd9e6b6e2ad2a23.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/d94fcf28907e9160b1c2b582cae05403.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/6f0a434d70a8bd25d214a1be15f2581a.jpg

Zeta
July 3, 2015, 6:46 PM
http://i.gyazo.com/3391870f0ec21db0aab5141b752162df.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/c0a48d3e71af5b8e282ec980d338174d.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/d8d79c37686a9fbd0dd9e6b6e2ad2a23.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/d94fcf28907e9160b1c2b582cae05403.jpg
http://i.gyazo.com/6f0a434d70a8bd25d214a1be15f2581a.jpg

All of the images are reading that they are broken, and therefore I cannot see them.

Zeon's RedComet
July 3, 2015, 7:31 PM
That's weird I can see them.

I like the AGE Vader lol. Still sad that there's no Iron Mask Vader.

Lacus Prime
July 4, 2015, 6:22 AM
http://i.gyazo.com/d8d79c37686a9fbd0dd9e6b6e2ad2a23.jpg


This one isn't a custom Gunpla, it's an actual toy (specifically the Star Wars Transformers Darth Vader that turns into the Death Star)