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Gundam_Asgard
May 29, 2015, 2:48 PM
Lets say, hypothetically, Athrun wasnt going through his issues and had an unclouded mind, and was fighting with his seriousness and heart into. When he and Kira meets in battle, how would of that fight gone?

Truth be told, Saviour Gundam seemed to be at about equal speed and mobility levels as the Freedom's insane levels. Athrun managed to stay ahead of and intercept Freedom from fighting consistently.

Freedom does have the nuclear reactor going for it, but this equates more to longevity as the saviour's battery used the Deuterion standard that tended to be stronger than normal. While it still drains and can run out of power eventually, it at least puts up levels of power on more equal terms of the Nuclear reactor.

Saviour does have the VPS over Freedom. both have a bit of equality in beam weaponry. Freedom does have the railguns over Saviour, but Saviour's Waverider-y MA mode has up to 5 beam weapons usable at once.

the two units really are pretty close to each, just as Athrun and Kira at their best are. So if Athrun gave his all to the way of ZAFT. who'd win that fight?

Zeta-G
May 29, 2015, 3:04 PM
Athrun is the better pilot. If he's actually focused on winning the battle instead of trying to talk Kira out of fighting, Kira will lose. See: Aegis v. Strike.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 29, 2015, 3:08 PM
Voting on team A here too. He IS the better of the two even if his suit is somewhat inferior, he would still emerge the winner.

Zeta-G
May 29, 2015, 3:16 PM
Plus let's not forget that the Freedom actually was taken down by Shinn in an inferior suit, and Shinn, while good, isn't Athrun good.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 29, 2015, 3:20 PM
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/365/a/6/hand_note_by_jhaengusii-d4ktpmc.jpg
All i gotta say about the Shinn v Kira.

Gundam_Asgard
May 29, 2015, 3:37 PM
Plus let's not forget that the Freedom actually was taken down by Shinn in an inferior suit, and Shinn, while good, isn't Athrun good.

Its hard to really use that for Athrun's advantage. Impulse was basically designed for fighting Kira. Remember, Shinns strategy in that fight was taking a hit, sacrificing a part, so he can in turn deliver a hit, and afterwards part swap so Impulse would be fresh while Freedom retains the damage. that's why Kira was beating on the Destiny despite being a better unit than impulse, cause Shinn couldn't play that strategy anymore.

If Athrun tried that, chances are Freedom would wear Saviour down first.

Zeta-G
May 29, 2015, 11:41 PM
My point was that Kira is a crappy pilot who can't hold his own against inferior machines, not that Athrun should try to copy Shinn's method of defeating Kira. Athrun, the master of melee combat, would probably just whip out his beam saber and be done with it. That or he would take advantage of the Saviour's design and mostly use hit and run tactics. Either way, Kira would go down.

As for Shinn, he simply used his head and took advantage of the Impulse's design and Kira's reluctance to kill to overpower the Freedom. It was a sound attack plan, given the circumstances and equipment at hand.

Zeon's RedComet
May 29, 2015, 11:47 PM
Gonna vote for the bastard Child of the F91 and the Zeta that's named after the bad CG.

(If no one got that, it's the Saviour)

Zeta-G
May 29, 2015, 11:57 PM
You say bastard child, I say love child. ;)

Zeon's RedComet
May 29, 2015, 11:57 PM
You say bastard child, I say love child. ;)

Bastard doesn't need to be bad per se.

I'm a bastard, and I like me.

Zeta-G
May 30, 2015, 12:11 AM
I know that the term "bastard" isn't always used as a pejorative, but it usually is, so I wanted to be clear: the Saviour is a beautiful design.

Psyco Diver
May 30, 2015, 11:50 AM
Geez I thought this was going to be a Freedom v G-Saviour battle, cause the G-Saviour would crush the Freedom

Zeta-G
May 30, 2015, 1:26 PM
Fun fact: the GM like grunt suit in G-Saviour is also named Freedom.

Zeon's RedComet
May 30, 2015, 1:30 PM
Fun fact: the GM like grunt suit in G-Saviour is also named Freedom.

Funner fact So is this:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/GF7-023NA_Gundam_Freedom

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 30, 2015, 1:31 PM
Pretty handsome, at least outside the movie.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gundam/images/c/c2/RGM-196.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20130422105030

Zeon's RedComet
May 30, 2015, 1:35 PM
most G-saviour suits look good when you either get it out of the movie, or out of some of the initial line art.

The propotions just look wonky.

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 12:02 AM
My point was that Kira is a crappy pilot who can't hold his own against inferior machines, not that Athrun should try to copy Shinn's method of defeating Kira. Athrun, the master of melee combat, would probably just whip out his beam saber and be done with it. That or he would take advantage of the Saviour's design and mostly use hit and run tactics. Either way, Kira would go down.

As for Shinn, he simply used his head and took advantage of the Impulse's design and Kira's reluctance to kill to overpower the Freedom. It was a sound attack plan, given the circumstances and equipment at hand.

Oh So you're just being completely ignorant of the prior times Kira fought peered gundams of the G-Project and held his own against three wicked super soldier gundams of SEED, and wrecked the entire Second Stage Series Gundams in the Freedom (Shinn included) and held his own against both main villains in destiny. and one extremely well thought of planned and deserved victory from top pilot in a high end unit during a dire situation just means Kira has to be a terrible pilot who can't hold his own. Got it.

Zeta
May 31, 2015, 12:29 AM
My Newtype senses are tingling, I sense a flame war coming. Prepare the fire extinguishers! We need to contain the fire before it spreads.

Zeon's RedComet
May 31, 2015, 12:58 AM
More like break out the popcorn.

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 3:35 AM
My Newtype senses are tingling, I sense a flame war coming. Prepare the fire extinguishers! We need to contain the fire before it spreads.

lol. you silly people.

edit: no, really. whys a reasonable rebuttal to a horribly ignorant statement automatically a flame war? just cause it involves Kira?

Zeta-G
May 31, 2015, 3:47 AM
Sorry to disappoint guys, but I'm not taking the flame bait.

@Gundam_Asgard: The Freedom was the most powerful mobile suit for most of Destiny. It popping out of nowhere and wreaking havoc on weaker suits doesn't make Kira a good pilot. He's better than nameless grunts, for sure, but once he got the overpowered gruntslayer, Freedom, he got lazy and started relying on the shoot everything button way too much, which gradually diminished his actual piloting skills. At one time Kira was a great pilot (although Athrun was better), but by the time he lost to Shinn, he had gotten used to being able to bully everyone else around with his illegally overpowered suit, and his piloting skills had deteriorated as a result. The Impulse and the other suits seen in Destiny up to that point were weaker than the Freedom, and most of them were piloted by rookies. Kira was a veteran ace in the most powerful suit of the time. Kira still lost, because by that point he had become a crappy pilot, and he was made that way by Freedom's easy button.

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 3:56 AM
Sorry to disappoint guys, but I'm not taking the flame bait.

@Gundam_Asgard: The Freedom was the most powerful mobile suit for most of Destiny. It popping out of nowhere and wreaking havoc on weaker suits doesn't make Kira a good pilot. He's better than nameless grunts, for sure, but once he got the overpowered gruntslayer, Freedom, he got lazy and started relying on the shoot everything button way too much, which gradually diminished his actual piloting skills. At one time Kira was a great pilot (although Athrun was better), but by the time he lost to Shinn, he had gotten used to being able to bully everyone else around with his illegally overpowered suit, and his piloting skills had deteriorated as a result. The Impulse and the other suits seen in Destiny up to that point were weaker than the Freedom, and most of them were piloted by rookies. Kira was a veteran ace in the most powerful suit of the time. Kira still lost, because by that point he had become a crappy pilot, and he was made that way by Freedom's easy button.

but but but. he outclassed Shinn in the impulse with freedom too. and then beat up other gundams on the same level as impulse piloted by aces... and then he outclassed shinn in Strike freedom too. and Shinn even had Destiny then, which was an upgrade that was on the same level as Strike freedom. Z-zeta G... it was on the same level as Strike Freedom. and shinn had to have rey help him match Kira. remember that Zeta G?... remember that?

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 31, 2015, 4:03 AM
but but but. he outclassed Shinn in the impulse with freedom too. and then beat up other gundams on the same level as impulse piloted by aces... and then he outclassed shinn in Strike freedom too. and Shinn even had Destiny then, which was an upgrade that was on the same level as Strike freedom. Z-zeta G... it was on the same level as Strike Freedom. and shinn had to have rey help him match Kira. remember that Zeta G?... remember that?
>extendeds
>aces
>Not grunt stompers who jobbed against main characters even with superior numbers

>SF
>Destiny
>same level


Try again

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 4:08 AM
>extendeds
>aces
>Not grunt stompers who jobbed against main characters even with superior numbers

>SF
>Destiny
>same level


Try again
we arent on /m/... use sentences, DOM Trooper.

I just cant believe theres hater ignorant enough to take a perfectly acceptable loss, and just say a character is a terrible because of it alone, despite everything else that would say otherwise. Its crap like that which breeded the backwards incest hillbilly hatedom clan that is; "Kira always wins, so he sucks, but he also loss, so he sucks. but other characters who loss dont suck "

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 31, 2015, 4:26 AM
we arent on /m/... use sentences, DOM Trooper.

I just cant believe theres hater ignorant enough to take a perfectly acceptable loss, and just say a character is a terrible because of it alone, despite everything else that would say otherwise. Its crap like that which breeded the backwards incest hillbilly hatedom clan that is; "Kira always wins, so he sucks, but he also loss, so he sucks. but other characters who loss dont suck "
Ah the "ignorant hater" diversion.
Mind responding to the actual points, AKA how Kira stomping far less skilled pilots makes him so good great or how Destiny with its inferior armaments and inferior pilot is somehow at the same level with Kiras beam bot 3000.

Take your time, write comprehensively and for giggles avoid using word hater in your reply.

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 4:28 AM
Ah the "ignorant hater" diversion.
Mind responding to the actual points, AKA how Kira stomping far less skilled pilots makes him so good great or how Destiny with its inferior armaments and inferior pilot is somehow at the same level with Kiras beam bot 3000.

Take your time, write comprehensively and for giggles avoid using word hater in your reply.

I'll do it quick.

If everyone is an inferior pilot, than how is he a bad pilot? Seriously, you keep saying everyone's inferior. Extended are inferior. Armies are inferior. How does a superior pilot the prove himself if everyone else is weaker?

Zeta-G
May 31, 2015, 4:31 AM
Impulse was weaker than Freedom. Ditto for Destiny compared to SF. The extendeds were never real aces; they're more like the base defenders in Dynasty Warriors Gundam. Better than the average grunt but not on the level of real aces like Athrun, Kira, Shinn, Mu, Rey, etc.

As far as Kira goes, I have no problem with admitting when he does something right or shows some skill, he just doesn't do much of either after getting the Freedom. Best I can give him props for in Destiny is stopping Shinn's crazy girlfriend/sister-substitute from destroying Europe and defeating Rey during the final battle.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 31, 2015, 4:41 AM
I'll do it quick.

If everyone is an inferior pilot, than how is he a bad pilot? Seriously, you keep saying everyone's inferior. Extended are inferior. Armies are inferior. How does a superior pilot the prove himself if everyone else is weaker?
Answering with an question isn't answering. I want you to explain me, why is Kira so great , when he never faces an equal opponent in Destiny.
In Seed, Kira fought against opponents who where better than him. Rau, Andy, Extendeds, Athrun, all of them forced Kira to actually put some effort in.
Destiny, there are no such opponents.

Zeta-G
May 31, 2015, 4:45 AM
I'll do it quick.

If everyone is an inferior pilot, than how is he a bad pilot? Seriously, you keep saying everyone's inferior. Extended are inferior. Armies are inferior. How does a superior pilot the prove himself if everyone else is weaker?
We're comparing Kira to his peers (aka his fellow aces). Of course he's a better pilot than the run of the mill grunts (who pretty much always suck in CE). But against aces who are using comparable machines (or a weaker machine in Shinn's case) and who are actually trying to fight him (as opposed to talking to him), Kira's not that great.

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 5:01 AM
Answering with an question isn't answering. I want you to explain me, why is Kira so great , when he never faces an equal opponent in Destiny.
In Seed, Kira fought against opponents who where better than him. Rau, Andy, Extendeds, Athrun, all of them forced Kira to actually put some effort in.
Destiny, there are no such opponents.

I think you answered your own question. literally your argument collapses on itself. Isn't having no equal kinda automatically making you a great pilot?

Ok. let me use some of your logic.

Athrun beat Shinn.
Kira beat Athrun.

"But Asgard, Athrun wasn't fighting his fullest."
'Why DOM and Zeta G, you silly geese. why does that sound familiar?"

But I see the barrier between us. Im trying to use overall history, while you all are selecting you're own parts.

You're vision; the Extendeds are jobbers and not real aces. They just kept getting beaten over and over on earth mostly by Shinn and kira.

How I see it; The Extendeds, three soldiers who were raised to be absolute killers due to strange methods but them on a level as a race of super people. Invaded an enemy Military Colony, took their units, pounded their forces there, and pursued by the minerva at equal strength, a crew made up of Red Coats, a ranking previously established to be an Ace Rank. (basically everything up til Earth.)

Shinn and Rey, the antagonists of the series, has done things such as taken out Destroy Gundams and hold his own against Kira, who in turn beat up armies and extendeds, and etc etc..

Extendeds in the early space arc were never definitevely beaten by this crew, so were at least more or less equal terms.

But Those Murasame pilots were able to beat Sting and chaos. grunts, therefore they must suck.

Sting invaded a colony full of enemy soldiers and mobile suits and fought his way out, and clashed with the main characters, holding his own. Murasames beat that.

ORB Grunts level up as they could take down an Ace.

But Kira was able to wipe them out in swarms. Kira can wipe out armies enemy pilots capable of taking down an Extended Ace.

Kira was also able to beat Sting. And Auel. And Stella.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 31, 2015, 6:26 AM
I think you answered your own question. literally your argument collapses on itself. Isn't having no equal kinda automatically making you a great pilot?

Ok. let me use some of your logic.

Athrun beat Shinn.
Kira beat Athrun.

"But Asgard, Athrun wasn't fighting his fullest."
'Why DOM and Zeta G, you silly geese. why does that sound familiar?"

But I see the barrier between us. Im trying to use overall history, while you all are selecting you're own parts.

You're vision; the Extendeds are jobbers and not real aces. They just kept getting beaten over and over on earth mostly by Shinn and kira.

How I see it; The Extendeds, three soldiers who were raised to be absolute killers due to strange methods but them on a level as a race of super people. Invaded an enemy Military Colony, took their units, pounded their forces there, and pursued by the minerva at equal strength, a crew made up of Red Coats, a ranking previously established to be an Ace Rank. (basically everything up til Earth.)

Shinn and Rey, the antagonists of the series, has done things such as taken out Destroy Gundams and hold his own against Kira, who in turn beat up armies and extendeds, and etc etc..

Extendeds in the early space arc were never definitevely beaten by this crew, so were at least more or less equal terms.

But Those Murasame pilots were able to beat Sting and chaos. grunts, therefore they must suck.

Sting invaded a colony full of enemy soldiers and mobile suits and fought his way out, and clashed with the main characters, holding his own. Murasames beat that.

ORB Grunts level up as they could take down an Ace.

But Kira was able to wipe them out in swarms. Kira can wipe out armies enemy pilots capable of taking down an Extended Ace.

Kira was also able to beat Sting. And Auel. And Stella.
If we where talking real life , which we aren't, Kira would be the greatest pilot.

However in fiction, characters, especially main ones, who plow through masses of enemies, who have no means of hurting the MC, aren't interesting or entertaining.
Sense of danger and vulnerability are key points in making good action. Kira goes almost an entire series leggy, unopposed by literally any one, Shinn being the sole exception, mowing down countless armies worth of suits, supposedly high performance, with out a scratch. No one can beat him, no matter who tries it. I don't find one sided fights interesting in the least.

Also, it really does not form a good picture about the Extendeds if they are unable to dispatch inferior Grunts in their supposedly high performance Gundams. I don't recall them being able to defeat Minervas suits, two cannon fodder suits and another Gundam.

You really aren't rebutting anything here, Extendeds still job, Kira still isn't shown to be anything but an aimbotter and you still hasn't told me why Destiny is on par with SF.

Your religious support for Kira is admirable but foolish effort, since no one is gonna be changing their opinions or being able to "win" here.

Zeta-G
May 31, 2015, 10:19 AM
You're also forgetting that the few times that the extendeds were able to do anything besides outright lose, it was due to the element of surprise. They always lost head on fights. They were never at the same level as the real aces.

And I disagree, Dom, even in real life Kira would be overrated.

Zeon's RedComet
May 31, 2015, 10:50 AM
Yeah the second Gen extendeds were kinda sad.

The druggies from the first series though were damn good, taking on SEED mode without breaking a sweat hardly.

Fun fact IIRC Yzak killed two out of three. Yzak is the Hero we deserved.

Dom Tropen MS-09D
May 31, 2015, 10:56 AM
Yeah the second Gen extendeds were kinda sad.

The druggies from the first series though were damn good, taking on SEED mode without breaking a sweat hardly.

Fun fact IIRC Yzak killed two out of three. Yzak is the Hero we deserved.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gundam/images/d/d0/Immagini-gundam-seed-75.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110609042745
True dat. Hell, he is one of the better pilots in Destiny too. Plus, Duel keeps getting sexier the more i look at it.

Gundam_Asgard
May 31, 2015, 3:05 PM
You're also forgetting that the few times that the extendeds were able to do anything besides outright lose, it was due to the element of surprise.
Oh, so now you are actually looking into battles, and not just going off of win lose or draw. So now are you gonna look into the fact that Kira in that battle victimized by the circumstance, and Shinn and rey had this abttle planned out, and thus him losing isn't simply 'cause he is a bad pilot'

Another problem, i think, is you devalue everything, to make it outright ridiculous to give anything credit. Being an Ace means you're above the average grunt. its the foundation in which the birth of being an ace stems from. but you find grunts to be at level -1. So suddenly the actions of being better of normal people, taking them out in swarms no longer means anything.

take that away, and then nobody is ana ce. because take every character every character beat, and it then goes all down to beating somebody who was capable of taking out swarms of normal people. he is no longer an ace, so anyone who beta him is no longer an ace, and anyone who beat that character is no longer an ace.

Twitch
June 1, 2015, 1:28 AM
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nXEtq78wI4/hqdefault.jpg

Zeta-G
June 1, 2015, 5:22 PM
Oh, so now you are actually looking into battles, and not just going off of win lose or draw. So now are you gonna look into the fact that Kira in that battle victimized by the circumstance, and Shinn and rey had this abttle planned out, and thus him losing isn't simply 'cause he is a bad pilot'

Another problem, i think, is you devalue everything, to make it outright ridiculous to give anything credit. Being an Ace means you're above the average grunt. its the foundation in which the birth of being an ace stems from. but you find grunts to be at level -1. So suddenly the actions of being better of normal people, taking them out in swarms no longer means anything.

take that away, and then nobody is ana ce. because take every character every character beat, and it then goes all down to beating somebody who was capable of taking out swarms of normal people. he is no longer an ace, so anyone who beta him is no longer an ace, and anyone who beat that character is no longer an ace.
I've always looked at the actual battles. Shooting someone in the back when they aren't looking is different than properly executing a plan to win a face to face duel. The Destiny extendeds are good at the former not the latter, which is why most of us classify them as lesser pilots than the true aces. As for Kira, you don't seem to understand that I'm saying that he's a bad/overrated pilot by ace standards. It goes without saying that he's better than all of the nameless grunts who die in five seconds flat. It's like when people say the U.S. has a high murder rate. They aren't comparing it to obviously worse off countries like Iraq; they're comparing it to its fellow first world countries (Canada, Japan, etc.). Kira is an ace, therefore he gets compared to other aces, and by that standard he's not very good in Destiny.

Rau Le Creuset
June 20, 2015, 10:09 PM
If I may chime in.. I think I'll cast my vote for Kira and the freedom. I think battery life is a huge problem for Athrun along with the freedoms extra firepower and unlimited running time. I know these have both been mentioned but I'd like to also talk about the Athrun and Kira fight in Seed. I'd like to argue that Kira was at a disadvantage during that fight. I've always felt that the Aegis' two extra swords, mobile armor mode, and giant willy wonka laser gave it a huge edge over the plain aile strike. Now the last thing I want to sound like is a Kira fanboy, but it honestly seems like the two pilots are evenly matched when pushed to their limits. So I believe the contest falls to the superior machine, which I think is the freedom.

Sorry if this post is a tad old.

Gundam_Asgard
June 21, 2015, 1:27 AM
not that old...

thing is, I never really see battery life/ power management in general a huge problem when talking 1v1 battles.

the strike vs aegis fight is precisely the type of Athrun i had in mind for this fight. the totally focused and determined one. With that said, while Athrun was kinda getting the advantage at the end there, he IS the only who ran out of power, and had to self destruct. and while cant knock him for it as a loss, just gonna point out that Aegis was completely destroyed, but Strike was repairable.

However, Saviour I don't think has half the energy problem Aegis and such had. I mean, Saviour was able to battle pretty big, longer scaled battles, eating up energy with the beam rifles and cannons and such. not sure of its just the new energy source is that much more efficient or the VPS saves that much more energy. but i don't recall saviour ever once showing a critical energy alert

Riah
June 21, 2015, 3:09 AM
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gundam/images/d/d0/Immagini-gundam-seed-75.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110609042745
True dat. Hell, he is one of the better pilots in Destiny too. Plus, Duel keeps getting sexier the more i look at it.
Just a reminder that the Duel Gundam is the only one of the five initial G Project Gundams that actually survives Destiny. And being the original Gundam and testbed for phase shift armor (and thus a CE equivallent to the Tallgeese and RX-78-2), that's only fitting. Or maybe I'm just biased because I like the orange and blue color scheme and I like how it has Gundam Alex type armor. Still, I like that my favorite CE Gundam doesn't get blown up. Not sure what that says about Yzak's skills, though.

Rau Le Creuset
June 21, 2015, 8:49 AM
My point was less about the power and more about the fact that the aegis was a better equipped mobile suit than the strike. If Athrun could barely beat Kira with a better mobile suit, than how could he beat him with an on par suit?

TripleZeta
June 21, 2015, 10:44 AM
So The Freedom vs the G-Savior?
Of course Mark Curran is the better pilot, and so handsome to boot.
*Rick Astley on roller-skates*